Sept. 13, 2021



We begin with Socrates and the history and meaning of "APOLOGIA". How we should defend what we believe is true. We use Socrates as an example of the result of what happens when we go against the status quo. How can we stay safe and sane?And when mistakes happen, how do we apologize?  How should we apologize? When is it ok not to apologize?  We discuss the reasons why we fight and how we can reach a loving point.

We begin with Socrates and the history and meaning of "APOLOGIA". How we should defend what we believe is true. We use Socrates as an example of the result of what happens when we go against the status quo. How can we stay safe and sane?
And when mistakes happen, how do we apologize?  How should we apologize? When is it ok not to apologize?  We discuss the reasons why we fight and how we can reach a loving point.





[00:00:00] Fawn: Here we go, here we go. Do you even know, do you even understand when you come up behind me and you scare the heck out of me when I'm in the kitchen and I'm deep in thought and I jump, am holding my heart and I feel traumatized because all of a sudden you're like you just come up from out of nowhere.

It seems from my perspective, And it scares the hell out of me. And then you get mad. Then we get into a fight because really all I need is an apology. Like, oh my God, I'm so sorry.

[00:00:37] Matt: Oh, timeout, timeout, timeout. I'm just walking up to you. I'm not trying to scare you. I'm

[00:00:43] Fawn: just walking up. Here we go again, link.

You know what? I don't even remember all of our fights. Like we have so many fights that miraculously, I don't even remember the fights. I just remember the general sense of annoyance and, [00:01:00] and like rage, but honey, all you have to say once you realize I have calmed down is I'm sorry. Oh my God.

Are you all right? Oh, no. Look at you. You, I totally startled you... like admit it, but you don't, you immediately go into a state of you're on trial and you're fighting for your, your, your perspective, your proving that you're right. Even though

[00:01:31] Matt: I didn't do anything.


[00:01:33] Fawn: that's the that's you did. Do... you scared me!!!!.


[00:01:39] Matt: There's intent. Oh my God, your honor.

[00:01:42] Fawn: All right, so good morning, everybody. Good evening. Good afternoon. Can I just say thank you, France. France is awesome. France has been such a loyal listener country like outside of the United States and you know what? [00:02:00] And so, so many other countries around the world.

Thank you all for listening, please, please. If you could leave us a kind review on one of the platforms. When you go on our website, our friendly, please. It helps out our show, which already you have helped so much. Thank you for listening everyone. Anyway, back to our fight. You ready? Oh dear. So we are always fighting.

We love each other, but we're always fighting, but really the fight happens because It's to me, from my perspective, it's about all the making of excuses instead of just apologizing. And so when was it a, was it a few weeks ago or a few months ago at time is very weird for me.

[00:02:50] Matt: Time is fairly fluid. Yeah.

[00:02:51] Fawn: But I would say somewhat recently.

You know, our whole basis somewhat recently, this happened and to just backtrack a little [00:03:00] bit, our whole foundation for the friendly movement and finding your perfect friendship match, which is how we started this whole movement was we set up, uh, this is long before Bumble and all these other guys, we set up a platonic friendship, a matchmaking service.

So you could find a true blue true... I don't know why they call it true blue. It makes me sad, but like a true friend. You're a true friend within your own zip code, finding your personality traits and everything. Like all your ethics and putting all that together to find a true friend. That's what we were about.

I digress. What was I saying? What was I trying to say?

[00:03:43] Matt: Time is fluid.

[00:03:45] Fawn: So. All of our stuff goes back to ancient Greece. Actually, this is not a new thing. I think the the loneliness epidemic is a new thing, if you look at all of history, but [00:04:00] the finding of true friends and to really have friends around you and the dynamics that happen within friendships. That's not new. It's, it's many, many, many, many, many centuries old. All right. Our inspiration comes from ancient Greece. Hello, Greece. So we were talking one day and then you brought up Socrates,

[00:04:25] Matt: Socrates, and.

I brought up Socrates because we started because, sorry, I'm always finding random things because that's what I do. Mostly because yeah, I don't let, I don't let the man track me. So I always log in as a quote unquote, new user. So there's no search history, so I'm not diving down rabbit holes. I'm very much taking a breadth first kind of approach to the universe, which is kind of fun.

And I uncovered an article that was talking about. About Plato's Apologia, which is Plato the only knowledge we have [00:05:00] of Socrates is through Plato because Socrates was a talker and Plato was a writer. Okay. So Plato is the one who immortalized, Socrates, and

[00:05:11] Fawn: any Socrates was Plato's teacher?


[00:05:14] Matt: Okay. Anyway. The article I came across was telling me that, Plato's Apologia, which is the apology of Socrates at his trial, where he ended up dying and drinking hemlock.

[00:05:24] Fawn: Wait, hold on, go back, go back. So, first of all, can you remind everyone why he was on trial.

[00:05:32] Matt: Well, he was a dangerous influence.

Um, Athens had been through a little bit of political instability and Socrates was out there challenging everybody. He would stand out in the market square. His thing was he would ask questions until the other person who started out smug ends up saying, oh

[00:05:55] Fawn: no, yeah. We talked about this before.

It's all about the questions. [00:06:00] And the people that thought they were really educated and knew everything would be dumbfounded. They would be found like. A non knowing person. Right. Which is everybody, nobody really knows everything.

[00:06:15] Matt: And in the process of this, he, he attracted a huge grouping of, young people around him.

So he was convicted. They convicted. Well, yeah, he was convicted. Yes. He was accused of, failing to acknowledge the gods of the city and introducing his own sense of division.

[00:06:33] Fawn: So he was challenging the status quo.

[00:06:36] Matt: Yes. And more importantly, as we know from bill and Ted's excellent adventure. "So crates" as they referred to him.

"So Crates" was accused of corrupting the young. So not unlike rock and roll

[00:06:49] Fawn: stars. I was just going to say, yeah, or whatever it is for whatever time period or whatever we're going through. There's always someone

[00:06:57] Matt: youngsters always get into stuff that the [00:07:00] oldsters don't understand.

So what I discovered reading an article was that, Plato's apology, the true definition of Apologia is okay. Self justification.

[00:07:13] Fawn: Okay. So, yeah, too. So it comes from the Greek. The etymology of it is apologia and means a form it's a formal defense of an opinion, a position or an action.

[00:07:27] Matt: So, and I apologize, I'm doing right,

[00:07:28] Fawn: so, okay. I'm just going to skip over that. In classical Greek, a, well, reasoned reply is what it means to an apology, which they would say apologia is a well reasoned reply, a thought out response to accusations made; as that of Socrates. Now, when you scare the hell out of me, or whenever we fight, obviously I'm upset and you don't [00:08:00] acknowledge the hurt.

On the other side, you immediately go to your own defense and that's not an apology, but it's interesting how that was an apology back then.

[00:08:10] Matt: I'm a classic

[00:08:11] Fawn: Greek, but excuse me, what happens to Socrates?

[00:08:17] Matt: Yes. So Socrates did not have a very friendly room. He had a lot of people who weren't very fond of him, so yeah, he was convicted both counts

[00:08:28] Fawn: and yeah. T tell, tell our friends what ha what they made him do. Well, hold on,

[00:08:32] Matt: hold on.

Uh, Socrates. Cause he Socrates, he, he, he was a very, very, very smart man for the time. And I think for all time he was a very, very, very smart man. So he suggested a punishment and they said no. And punishment was interesting. The punishment would have been, him having to pay out six times his net worth, which

[00:08:56] Fawn: was interesting.

So he did offer an [00:09:00] apology and they were not accepting it because one of the things I think that makes an apology is if someone can't understand your apology, then you have to make it right. Sometimes you can't just say, I'm sorry, and have it be sincere or they're not going to accept it. Sometimes you have to go and fix the situation and.

Well, yeah, so, so he, in a way he was trying to do that.

[00:09:25] Matt: They laugh, they laughed at him for that literally six times his net worth, he was willing to pay, but then ostensibly, he would've been able to continue doing what he was doing. So I don't believe he said, Hey, I'm gonna stop. He said, okay, I hear what you said.

So here's my here's, here's a payment that I can give you. And he was going to pay them in silver, which is a little twisted, right. Being accused and convicted of being a low moral character basically, and trying to buy his way out. It's kind of fun. Interesting. Right. And then, And how I come to this as he offered [00:10:00] one it's called minae, which is a silver coin and he was worth about that much.

He was worth. Hmm, no, I'm sorry. No, I, I stand corrected. It was actually 30 times his net worth because he offered one minae initially, which is his entire net worth which is interesting. And then he said, well, I'll get some guarantors and I will give you 30 minae, which is 30 times his net worth. So it wasn't six times.

It was 30 times anyways. Um, but they said, no, not so much. Um, yeah, here's a, here's a cup of hemlock, which is a poison. Go ahead and drink that. And he did with no regrets, at least that's how Plato paints it. Uh,

[00:10:38] Fawn: so back to. But back to the matter at hand, an apology aplogia, sometimes you just can't win, right?

Sometimes it's not going to help, but apologies, not going to help. We all make mistakes and apologizing is definitely a challenge. It could [00:11:00] definitely be its own art form. Having kids when they do something terrible to their sibling. We always like have a discussion and I'm like, okay, once the discussion is done, I'm like, now you see both sides.

Right. We know your side, why you did what you did, but do you understand why that hurt? L okay. Yeah. Reluctantly, she'll say, yeah. I'm like, all right, well now you have to make amends. I need you to go apologize . And like, she'll. Boom. Boom, boom, boom, boom. Say mom told me to say, sorry, like that is not an apology.

So here we go again, start all over. I'll have another discussion. It's exhausting. So it's quite a challenge to really apologize. And it has so many levels to it because sometimes you have to not only apologize to a person, but you have to kind of apologize to your own self and forgive yourself. It's really about [00:12:00] forgiveness and letting go and not holding on.

That's where the problem is. It's like, you feel like you have to hold on. I have to feel like, I feel like I have to hold on to my stance because you're not hearing me. You're not looking at me. You're not seeing what pain you've inflicted on me. You know, it could be small or big. If you constantly go to like this formal defense of I'm, right,

so the, the fight explodes and it turns into a huge nuclear weapon situation where there's total destruction. Do you not understand that when we fight?

[00:12:42] Matt: I'm never saying I'm right.

[00:12:43] Fawn: You're wrong. You do, because let's say you come in and you break something then. And I'm like, oh my God, that is my artifact from one of my photo shoots from Ethiopia.

And you're like, well, you shouldn't have put it there as your, you put it there. And [00:13:00] then you totally give me your whole perspective of why you broke it instead of saying, sorry. Or when you do, sorry, Matt just tried to talk. Or when you do say, sorry, you quickly say it while I'm in the middle of rage and I cannot hear you when I'm upset.

Like you need to hear the person's pain and wait for a pause and then truly sincerely apologize when you say, oh my God, I'm so sorry. While the person is still like in the, in the midst of not hearing you, cause they're like feeling and seeing they're doing a replay of what just happened. I can't hear you then.

And then I don't know, a long time later while at the end of a live fight, only because it's an end only because I'm exhausted or you're exhausted. And you didn't even apologize. And then another fight starts because you'll say I did too [00:14:00] apologize

[00:14:00] Matt: multiple times.

[00:14:01] Fawn: I'm like, no, you did not. You did not. Oh.

And so we fight about that for a long time. So we have to backtrack and find out exactly what minute of the day it was that the supposed apology game I'm like, oh, so you were saying, you apologize, right when it hit the floor. Um, I can't hear you. Like I can't, I can't hear you. Are you feeling it most acutely?

Well, that's what I'm feeling more, most acutely and I cannot hear your lame little, little part. Oh,

[00:14:34] Matt: lame. They're super sincere folks. Super sincere. And I only get started getting into defending my position because I'm now apologized. I've sincerely apologize. And I'm still getting ball. I'm still getting shellacked

[00:14:51] Fawn: you know what?

You're lucky. You're cute. And then I love you because we always work it out. I am lucky. Knock on wood. [00:15:00] All right. You just did a happy dance. Here's the thing. Sometimes the worst part of an apology is when the person is so mad at you. Right? How do you apologize then? And how do you apologize when you don't like the person?

[00:15:21] Matt: Right. Right. And how do you accept an apology when somebody has done you so completely wrong?

[00:15:30] Fawn: Well, I that's, when I think the apology really needs to be for yourself, for you to forgive yourself for being in that situation to have been hurt by this person and realizing, okay, this person may do this all the time.

They may not be a good person for you. You may need to move away from this person. You may not, it may not serve you to be friends with this person or have to have this person in your immediate [00:16:00] circle or in your circle period. Right? So you need to take that apology upon your own heart and say, wow, all right, I'm going to take it easy on myself.

I'm going to forgive myself for being in this situation, but I'm going to take the lesson that this person does this without remorse, whatever the situation is and take that as an opportunity to say, I am taking this action now. And that action is I will not participate with this. They're not allowed in

[00:16:36] Matt: no.

Well, in point of fact, that's usually how I deal with things. I mean, when I'm so completely wronged, I'm just done, but it has to be a real fundamental wrongness,

[00:16:48] Fawn: especially when they're very apologia about it. They're not even apologia about it. They don't even defend it. It's just who they are. It's a constant stream of wrongs that don't.[00:17:00]

Like they, they may not even realize it when you explain it to them,

[00:17:03] Matt: it

doesn't necessarily have to be a constant string. I mean, I can remember, an ex friend of mine back in the day.

[00:17:10] Fawn: I remember.

[00:17:11] Matt: And it was interesting, uh, working at a company, digital lava, working there for a while, senior developer, I brought in another guy as a senior developer I'd worked with in the past and, you know, he was, he was who he was and.

[00:17:26] Fawn: This is the guy you played games with. They would begin with

[00:17:30] Matt: an a, yeah, we would play

[00:17:31] Fawn: video games, but I dare say it was not the only thing he did wrong to you though. Hold on. All right.

[00:17:38] Matt: Thank you anyways. Um, yeah, due do some, uh, financial improprieties, uh, the company. And another company swooped in to just buy the assets, right?

Not the debt, not the blah, blah, blah. They just say scraped out a tiny little piece of the company and took it away and they wanted to talk to all the developers. Fair enough. Software [00:18:00] developers. Fair enough. Now I was out on vacay rather as soon as, as soon as the company folded and I got my walking papers and I was in like the last round of layoffs and all the rest of it.

And there was some shakiness going on there too, but that's irrelevant. I took off. It was right when I met my wife, we were dating. We went to, we went up to Seattle. And, uh,

[00:18:22] Fawn: is that what it is that when all that went down, I went down. I thought it was when you went camping with your friends? No.

[00:18:29] Matt: Okay. All right.

Nevermind. Anyways. Um, so, and he manned up, but, uh, the company wants to talk to all the developers and I was like, oh God, I don't know. And I'm not even here. So we'll see. Is what I said and what I communicated to my friend. And I thought about it while I was out on vacation. I'm like, I might as well, like look at these people in the eye and see what they have to say.

And, you know, maybe there's an opportunity there that I might care about who knows. Um, so [00:19:00] I changed my mind. I made a different decission

[00:19:02] Fawn: can you back up? I don't know if it's clear. So basically they were looking to hire some of the developers. Well, they were interested

[00:19:08] Matt: in this. They were kind of exactly right. And this is one of these things that typically happens.

I mean, when my latest company got acquired, they, again, we interviewed for our jobs, uh, anyways. Um, so when I came back, uh, I made the decision. I wanted to talk to them and it turns out my buddy had already talked to them in the process of already talking to them. The projects that I had worked on and pretty much solely worked on back in the day where, where it wasn't a team of developers, a single developer who did a lot.

He had said that he had actually written those.

[00:19:45] Fawn: He took credit for your work.

[00:19:46] Matt: He took credit for all of my work because he assumed I wouldn't be talking to these people. Now he manned up and told me that.

[00:19:52] Fawn: Yeah, he told me too, like he told you in front of me and

[00:19:56] Matt: you. So he, you know, in, in that [00:20:00] respect, he quote unquote manned up, but

[00:20:01] Fawn: wow.

He may end up, but he had already

[00:20:04] Matt: done it. He had already done it. He hadn't asked if it was okay. Which honestly here's the weirdest part. I might have been okay with it. I'm certainly okay. Now because I'm very emotionally distanced from it, but that was it. We were done.

[00:20:17] Fawn: I remember though, in the beginning, You weren't completely done immediately.

Cause I think one, you were in shock, but I remember having a conversation like, well, I guess he needs it more than I do. Like he's really desperate for work. Right. So he had a mortgage. You know,

[00:20:35] Matt: mortgage and wife and I just had a

[00:20:39] Fawn: wife. He, she worked. So he had a partner. It's not like he was supporting a family.

[00:20:44] Matt: He was never as I think, confident as me.


[00:20:49] Fawn: of course not. If you're competent, you wouldn't. That act he did, but yeah, so that was done. So that's an example of one thing, but it really wasn't one thing he, he had, uh, [00:21:00] um, a lot of tiny cuts. Usually when people do you wrong, there are many other cuts, right?

Remember he hit on me in front of you in front of his wife. You don't even remember.

[00:21:15] Matt: No, because I wouldn't have taken it at all. Seriously. I mean, he was kind of, well,

[00:21:19] Fawn: neither did I, but it was still gross right in front of his wife at dinner. I get it. But anyway, I'm just saying usually when someone does that, uh, w what's the word for it when they're devious like that?

What's the word for it when they're not coming from a place of integrity? It's not, it's not just the one time where I get it or is that just me? Is that me having a bleak outlook

[00:21:47] Matt: for me? And get back to the subject at hand? What

[00:21:49] Fawn: I'm saying one, I'm not saying I'm not talking about you in particular, calm down.

What I'm trying to say is usually it's not [00:22:00] just the one thing, the one thing ends up being like the big thing you're like that is it. I am DONE.

[00:22:08] Matt: I dunno. I put whether you go looking for heaven or hell, you'll find it. So if you want to look for those occasions where they were an ass, you will find them.

If you go looking for those occasions where they were a super swell guy, you will find them.

[00:22:21] Fawn: All right. All right. So what do we do? What do we do with an apology? Do you understand? So basically what we're sharing with you here is our epiphanies of what apology actually is. Because, and it was so funny again, you're lucky you're cute and that I love you because when you found the article on Socrates, you're like, you see and you're pointing to it and you're like, you see, and then say, how you, do you remember how you said it to me? Of course. He's like, you see, I apologia! Your voice went all [00:23:00] high. Like

[00:23:02] Matt: my attempt to not get in trouble for saying it,

[00:23:05] Fawn: but I apologia I'm like exactly.

You apology. Yeah. You basically had the formal defense of your own opinion, your position, your action, why you are right. That's right. Instead of saying, oh my God, I'm so sorry.

[00:23:20] Matt: Well, that's not an apology.

[00:23:24] Fawn: It's interesting. How things change over history? I like the

[00:23:28] Matt: word decimate. That's a Greek word. It used to be one in 10, and now it means nine now.

[00:23:33] Fawn: And now people just misuse the word, not knowing exactly what it means.

[00:23:37] Matt: And where did flammable and inflammable come up? Come about? They both mean can explode by fire so, or they both can burn. So it's yeah. Relevant.

[00:23:45] Fawn: Well, I don't, I don't have my etymology dictionary in front of me. And that's another show.

Why would you bring a flammable right now? Burn the building down. That's a weird one. I will burn the building down when you don't apologize. Right. That, that is it, [00:24:00] man. I can't it's ridiculous space by the way. Yeah. Office space. Milton.

[00:24:07] Matt: It

[00:24:07] Fawn: was Milton. Yeah. Guacamole. I love that. Nobody remembers that. Well, nobody actually hears what he's saying throughout the whole movie,

[00:24:17] Matt: unless you really, unless you

[00:24:18] Fawn: again, yeah.

Play it back at like slow speed and really turn up the sound to hear what he's mumbling. Right. And he's mumbling letting you know he's upset and he's going to take action, but nobody listens to him. They ignore him. They push them to the side in the corner. In the basement, like

[00:24:38] Matt: Fawn's got

a red stapler by the way.

[00:24:41] Fawn: Okay. You know what the red stapler means if you watch office space or if you watched the movie "Office Space", is that what it was called anyway? So the apology, well, I, I, I don't, I don't know. They

[00:24:54] Matt: apologia, uh, No, and I, I get it, I get [00:25:00] it. And I understand that, you know, welcome to a traditional thought versus where we should have grown as a culture, as a people away from the defense, unless the other person says, how could you let this happen?

Or they want to know why then you should throw that out.

[00:25:20] Fawn: I have, I have two examples. One is. You really have to let go of your own defense when you, when you see the other side has been broken and I'm not talking about a broken piece of glass that was broken, that you were responsible for, or you think you're not responsible for breaking, but broken as in the person is upset, right?

So sometimes you not, sometimes I think the best approach is to let go of your own defense. Stay strong, but let go of that. For example, um, I saw this example [00:26:00] years ago, having to deal with parking spots, right? So let's say you, you park your car like a fool is how I say it. Like, do you ever go into a spot?

And you're like, why did this person park this way? This is ridiculous. Right. They obviously parked not within the lines and took up like three spots. So, you know, for whatever reason, sometimes you don't know sometimes that person parks like a fool because the person before them park like a fool and it was the only spot.

Like it was the only way, you know what I mean? The other person got into the lines. It doesn't matter, but let's say you come back to your parking spot and this person is standing there so angry because you took their spot or, you know, you took their spot at work or whatever it is, you parked like a fool.

Don't try to explain why you parked like a fool. Initially, what you can do is, oh my God. Like [00:27:00] just before they beat you to it, say, oh my God, look at me. I parked like a fool. Look at this. I'm so sorry. And you must be so upset. You're trying to get to where you're trying to get to. And here I am, I did the stupid thing.

Oh my God. You know, it kind of takes the heat off the situation. It could even make for a funny thing, like, oh my God. Look at me. I'm such a clown knowing deep down you're not really a fool a clown. But do you know what I mean? It takes away the heat

[00:27:37] Matt: or an offer's justification. They have the person to really go for ya

[00:27:41] Fawn: perhaps, but I would say more, more likely they won't because you're already beating them to it.

And it isn't, it isn't that kind of Aikido. It's like, they expect you to be in defense. And you're not, isn't that part of Aikido is like

[00:27:58] Matt: definitely offering [00:28:00] an,atemi, which is, something where they're convinced that you're about to hit them and it changes their body chemistry. Right? So you, you hit them with the truth.

[00:28:09] Fawn: And another thing that changes body chemistry is this is, uh, an old Hawaiian thing, but what you state once there's a pause once there's enough, um, lag in time and I'm not talking like three weeks later, I'm talking about, there's a pause in the moment to say, I'm so sorry. I love you. Please forgive me.

They may not say, okay, I forgive you in that moment, but it does change the chemistry of the situation. Those are my two tidbits, my two pieces of advice. And the other thing is just try to walk away without creating another fight on top of it, just apologize or say, oh my God, I see your pain [00:29:00] right now.

I did not mean for you to experience this pain. I'm really sorry.

Let me try to find a way to make it up to you, but

[00:29:06] Matt: that wouldn't work for me because you can't hear me initially.

[00:29:09] Fawn: I said, wait for a pause. You don't wait for a pause. You're like, oh my God. I'm so sorry. Exactly. And then right into defense mode,

[00:29:16] Matt: I am being attacked.

[00:29:18] Fawn: No, I'm not attacking you. I am sincerely in shock or upset, and you're taking that as an attack on you.

So you're being selfish,

[00:29:30] Matt: my blah, blah, blah. You did this. How could you do that? Well, yeah, that seems awfully directed at

[00:29:38] Fawn: somebody. Well, you need to take responsibility so you're letting know, oh my God, no, you, you are in defense more than you apologize. And the apology is like a split second long and your defense is like 18 million minutes long.

It's true. We're not getting anywhere now. We're getting into another fight. I can [00:30:00] see you looking like. Don't you look at me like that?

[00:30:03] Matt: Love is winning folks.

[00:30:04] Fawn: Love is winning.

[00:30:08] Matt: What was that? Oh my God.

[00:30:11] Fawn: I feel mad right now. All right. All right. We're here to solve humanity's problems that create another one by fighting.

Anyway, maybe we can just say, look, guys, this is where the apology came from. You just got to deal with it . Apologia is not necessarily an apology

[00:30:32] Matt: You need to rise above it. You need to, certainly when you do someone wrong, you need to own it and then you need to make it better. Somehow

[00:30:40] Fawn: it really goes back to ourselves, right?

No one truly has control over your emotions. You can let them, which means I can walk away from you and never talk to you again, man. It's true. It's what we do not we, but like, That's what people do. They divorce. [00:31:00] They, because you're not meeting each other. Right. And you don't want to anymore. It's on point because you're just not, your needs are not being met.

Your emotional needs are not being met. If you're constantly having to fight and see, we should shoot video. Cause I should show your expression.

[00:31:25] Matt: How am I am angelic, folks. I practically have a halo over my head.

[00:31:31] Fawn: All right. Is there any way we can wrap this up? Do you have anything to say? And then you are constantly right and I'm wrong.

[00:31:39] Matt: I'm sorry,

[00:31:39] Fawn: honey. You know what? Shut up. How rude. That's another thing. This sarcastic apology. That's not sarcastic. That was another thing is the sarcastic apology guys that will FUEL the fire that's like pouring gasoline in the sarcastic [00:32:00] apology. It's worse that it's, it's, it's even worse than the in insincere apology.

Like mom told me to apologize, like what the sarcastic apology. No bueno. So you're quiet.

[00:32:16] Matt: I was waiting for a pause in the conversation so I could apologize.

[00:32:24] Fawn: Okay. That's too long.

[00:32:28] Matt: I love you. Sweet pea. Don't


[00:32:30] Fawn: to piss you off. See, that's better. You can say, I love you. I'm sorry, please forgive me. It has nothing to do with you being right or wrong. The main point is I love you, please forgive me. Cause I don't want to fight with your ass.

I shouldn't use a bad word. That's true. Is it a bad word? It's just a body

[00:32:56] Matt: part. And it's also a, uh, animal. It's

[00:32:59] Fawn: [00:33:00] also a cute little donkey.

Okay. So every good story needs a beginning, a middle. And, and I don't know

[00:33:08] Matt: Be kind. . Wow. Look at that wrinkly nose. We should have video on you devil.

[00:33:15] Fawn: How do we wrap this up?

[00:33:17] Matt: Talking about. I didn't even mention. Socrates was the smartest man is confirmed by the Delphic


The Oracle at Delphi, which proclaimed Socrates to be the smartest of all men, because somebody asked the Oracle because you actually talked to the Oracle and it talked back, um, who is the smartest man in all the land. And it said Socrates, who was bulled over it because he thought he was an idiot.

Okay. So anyways, folks, when you're caught in a situation. Where you've done someone wrong, try and let go of defending or even allowing them to understand why something happened, right.

[00:33:54] Fawn: It's not about you. It's about

[00:33:56] Matt: what about you at that point? It's about making the other person [00:34:00] feel better. So the other person needs to express how they're feeling because that's important.

And then indeed when they come to a point where it's appropriate and this the trick. Cause I just want to get my apology out so fast. So it's done. Cause I hate admitting when you know, I've done something stupid or wrong or clumsy or fill in your blank when it comes to a pause, then sincerely apologize.

Hmm. And I will try and do

[00:34:30] Fawn: that. Honest. You say that every time until we get into a situation again, and here we go again. You know, it's, it's fine. When we're sitting here all nice at the table with our coffees, with our mics and you sound like the perfect person, folks, this is what you do. But when, when it comes down to it, here we go again, it's a [00:35:00] fight.

Tap tap. Sometimes we do tap and then sometimes we have of a phrase we'll throw out when we know that there's no winning on either side and we'll just yell. Love is winning. It's it's pretty much, is it, I mean, would you consider that a white flag love is winning?

[00:35:21] Matt: Well, that's certainly a request for truth.

So yes, white.

[00:35:24] Fawn: Yeah. It's our, it's our requests for truce. That's for sure.

[00:35:27] Matt: It's time to take back apologia and apologize.

[00:35:31] Fawn: There is a time for an apologia.

[00:35:33] Matt: Well, yeah, certainly if you're on trial,

[00:35:35] Fawn: no, not even, well, I guess you're always formal trial. No. Okay. I dare say, now watch, this is going to backfire on me, but once you've apologized and things are okay again, I think it's important to have an apologia. So the person understands how you ended up in that situation.[00:36:00]

So they know maybe they're short and they'll leave a cup somewhere that's suited for them. And then here comes a much taller, bigger person and they knock over the cup then, you know, okay. I shouldn't, maybe I shouldn't put the cup right there, but this needs to happen after the fact after everything's okay.

After everything has been soothed, then you can say, well, this is why this happened. I don't have any examples out there in the world we can use. I just feel like the whole world is in such a state of not hearing an apology. Right. And it's interesting that we had a leader that would never apologize. And that's interesting.

There, there wouldn't even be an apologia. It would just be nothing, Like never admitting a wrong. Because they feel like nothing they do is a wrong well,

[00:36:57] Matt: and that's a whole other aspect, the person who [00:37:00] apologizes you can view them as weak and somebody who's weak, you can go after. So it's also about maintaining yourself as.

You know, maintaining strength inside of yourself, even though you're apologizing, even though your weaker in the eyes of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Still being able to do that is, is really a sign of strength. It's really a sign of confidence. It's really a sign of. You know, I will survive. I will.

[00:37:30] Fawn: Yeah. And it definitely shows that they are weak when they feel like they can't do that, that they, that they can't apologize because that makes them really well,

[00:37:39] Matt: certainly weak and moral character.


Love is winning. Love you, babe.

Plato's apology. Socrates was a quote-unquote gadfly or a horsefly, , trying to sting the Athenian nobility into doing what was responsible and what was good, which was really [00:38:00] kind of one of the core central reasons why he was accused of the things he was accused of.

And at least this was his mindset, but again, I'm offering defense and we're talking about apologizing and that doesn't fit. We're

[00:38:11] Fawn: not just talking aboutapology. You were talking about the whole thing, the whole thing, defense and apology, and why you need the apologia. Sometimes you need that defense.

And like I said, you need that defense at the end. To explain why certain situation occurred or, to explain your thought, your mode of thinking of why you reached a certain conclusion that may still not be understood by the other person. If not, then that fight is going to reoccur.

Why are we hearing crickets in the middle, in the middle of the morning do you hear that? I do. It's like, have you all heard roosters? [00:39:00] When I was out on a photo shoot in Ethiopia? And we were starting to really move away from the Bush and like go towards the city. But we were still very far away from the city.

It was the first time I could sleep in a hut, like a structure. I heard a rooster I got all excited, not excited, but I'm like, okay, I guess I have to start my day because I was only thinking of rooster is from what I read in. Nursery school. Like as soon as the sun comes up, cock-a-doodle-doo the, you know, the rooster tells you

the sun is coming it's morning time. So anyway, I heard the rooster and I went through my drawn out routine of putting the socks and the hiking boots and like all the gear that I would have to have every day, which it took forever. It felt like, especially when you're hot and tired and hungry all the time.

And tired. Did I mention that? But anyway, I heard the rooster, it was still [00:40:00] dark, but I'm like, I guess the sun's coming up. So I started to get dressed, unzipped myself out of the many tents I had built for myself. Cause I was terrified of the mosquitoes. I had a mosquito tent and then inside of that, I was, I had all this stuff on me to protect from mosquitoes.

And then when I got out of the mosquitonet tent on the bed, supposedly quote, unquote bed, then, I would get out of the, tent, which was inside this, hut. I finally get out, I'm all geared up. I opened the door and I'm like, where's the sun rooster? Where's this sun. So somehow I got to my watch and it was two in the morning.

I was pissed.

[00:40:43] Matt: Nice. That rooster should

[00:40:44] Fawn: apologize. So like, are the crickets like the rooster, like you think Cricket's only happened at night anyway, I digress folks. I apologize. Sorry. Um, do you have anything to add? All [00:41:00] right. I love you so much. Thank you for listening everyone. Oh, I thought you was

[00:41:06] Matt: talking to me.


[00:41:07] Fawn: love you too. Okay. We'll talk to you in a few days. Everyone talk to you later.