March 27, 2023

The War of Art and Clearing Self-Hatred - Peeling the Onion to Love

The War of Art and Clearing Self-Hatred - Peeling the Onion to Love

We're joined by our friend Marianne. 
We're joined by our friend Marianne and discuss the strange occurrence that happens when we do something creative when we start to feel a passion as you feel like, oh my God, I want to do this, or I want to say this, I want to experience this, there's a kind of inertia pulling us to the opposite extreme.  It's this opposing kind of dynamic that's happening. I feel like when we pursue our dreams and our dreams could be pursuing our voice, pursuing speaking the truth in the world, we are met with this kind of resistance. Steven Pressfield calls it "The War of Art". It's a force that can stop you from doing what you're supposed to be doing. If you don't value yourself, you'll always sell yourself short. In this episode, we explore a way to clear these things, these horrible, heavy, negative thoughts that keep us from our greatness, for striving for what we need. We strive for unlimitedness and feeling free.Pick up a free copy of Fawn's workbook on making friends: TO ACTION: PLEASE SHARE OUR PODCAST WITH OTHERS #Steven Pressfield the War of Art,  #"Afterlife",  #Ricky Jervais, #cutting costs, #growth mode, #Business,  #cost-cutting mode,

Apple Podcasts podcast player badge
Spotify podcast player badge
Google Podcasts podcast player badge
Overcast podcast player badge
Castro podcast player badge
PocketCasts podcast player badge
RSS Feed podcast player badge
Goodpods podcast player badge

We're joined by our friend Marianne. 

We're joined by our friend Marianne and discuss the strange occurrence that happens when we do something creative when we start to feel a passion as you feel like, oh my God, I want to do this, or I want to say this, I want to experience this, there's a kind of inertia pulling us to the opposite extreme.  It's this opposing kind of dynamic that's happening. I feel like when we pursue our dreams and our dreams could be pursuing our voice, pursuing speaking the truth in the world, we are met with this kind of resistance. Steven Pressfield calls it "The War of Art". It's a force that can stop you from doing what you're supposed to be doing. 
If you don't value yourself, you'll always sell yourself short. 
In this episode, we explore a way to clear these things, these horrible, heavy, negative thoughts that keep us from our greatness, for striving for what we need. We strive for unlimitedness and feeling free.

Pick up a free copy of Fawn's workbook on making friends:

#Steven Pressfield the War of Art,  #
"Afterlife",  #Ricky Jervais, #cutting costs, #growth mode, #Business,  #cost-cutting mode,


[00:00:00] FAWN: Hello everybody. Welcome back. Hello. Maryanne is here with us. You all remember Maryanne? She's our very first friend in this town. We moved to and we met, although we met a few people, a bunch of people at the same time, like within the same few hours or days. , Maryanne is the first one that was like clearly.
[00:00:25] FAWN: We're here to be friends, not just neighbors, like major falling in love, friendship, like there you are, kind of deal. Maryanne, was with us when we did that in-person thing at the local coffee shop with everybody else. Maryanne from the show. What, what did we call it? The art of the start.
[00:00:44] FAWN: Welcome, Maryanne. Thank 
[00:00:45] MARIANNE: you for having me 
[00:00:46] FAWN: again. Thank you for talking to me today. , I feel lighter. Thank you. Mm. And I asked Maryanne to come because we were gonna talk about something else today. I'm like, oh, scrap it, Matt. Maryanne, can you come over? Can we talk about this, please? Last time we talked about the art of self-awareness.
[00:01:06] FAWN: Knowing what your feelings are, knowing what you truly want, even just getting to a point where you allow yourself to explore, this is what I'm feeling, this is what I want. Yes, Matt, the oven is working and it's on. Matt just made this look like, excuse 
[00:01:25] MATT: me for looking over there. My 
[00:01:27] FAWN: goodness. Well, you looked concerned, so yeah, I turn on the oven.
[00:01:30] FAWN: It's on. I'm baking potatoes. Potatoes are in the oven.
[00:01:36] FAWN: So this week I wanted to talk about the art of listening, like further getting into that. We've talked about that before, but. Early in the morning, we were at the coffee shop and I felt all these feelings and I felt like the past two weeks I've been experiencing so much. Like all of a sudden all these emotions came to the surface that were hidden in my body.
[00:02:04] FAWN: Thank you very much to my acupuncturist who's coming on our show, by the way, to talk about how do you communicate with your body. , how does your body communicate with you? That's another show. But because of this particular technique, she, she did it, it had to do with the lungs and you know, the lungs, a long time ago someone told me, watch smokers.
[00:02:27] FAWN: Because what smoking does, what nicotine does is it numbs the lung. So watch people who smoke because as soon as they hit on an emotion that they're not comfortable with, they immediately need to light up, and it's because the nicotine numbs that whole area. Isn't that fascinating? 
[00:02:48] MARIANNE: That is wild. 
[00:02:49] FAWN: I don't remember who told me this, actually.
[00:02:51] FAWN: I learned this as a child. Like I heard it somewhere that was like, it felt legit to me. I'm like, that makes sense, because I remember looking at my cousin who was a teenager, Who was going through so much all the time. And I, and I looked at her, I'm like, oh, there's the emotion. Immediately I had to have a cigarette, you know?
[00:03:13] FAWN: That's another show though, . But because of what Jacqueline did, that opened up my lungs like she was working on my. all of a sudden, like, well, not all of a sudden, but a few days later, certain things started to happen. What I've been doing, um, is I've been working on so many projects, but the main project I've been working on has been this new career that I've added into my life.
[00:03:45] FAWN: That's for the last two and a half years I've been training. . And so lately what's been new on that front is the last week and a half has been when I started to actually audition. I've been doing voiceover work or I've been auditioning, and first of all, this is how it started let me know if this jives with all of you listening, but when you do something creative , when you start to feel a passion come out of you, when you feel like, oh my God, I wanna do this, or I wanna say this, I want to experience this.
[00:04:29] FAWN: It usually takes like, there's inertia, right? Like if you're driving a car and you're going around the corner, You are pull, although you're going to the right, your body's being pulled to the left, right? It's this opposing kind of dynamic that's happening. I feel like when you pursue your dreams and your dreams could be pursuing your voice, pursuing speaking the truth in the world, that you are met with this kind of resistance.
[00:05:01] FAWN: So it's a big deal for you to do what you're doing. , and I feel like that's the biggest hurdle, right? There's a book that I read a while ago, um, it's the, it sounds like The Art of War, but it's the War of Art . And he talks about how, oh, I'm probably gonna butcher his message, but it's, it's like when you are doing creative things, there's an entity out there to get you to stop
[00:05:33] FAWN: it's this evil force that will come to get you to stop doing what you're supposed to be doing. that's pretty much what started happening with me. So I was doing the voiceovers, the auditions, and I've been getting great feedback from my mentor from like all these people. at the same time
[00:05:54] FAWN: the children's picture books that I've been writing, I talked to an agent and got like the best, the best meeting. It was fantastic. Like it should have had me on another planet, right? With how high I was. Mm-hmm. . But instead I started to hear these voices, you know, from my mind that said, oh, you're too ugly to do this.
[00:06:20] FAWN: You're not in shape enough to do this. You look terrible. You look haggard. You are too old, you're too fat, you're too short. You're too ugly. You're too, you're not even talented. So I, I'm, I'm fighting all these, these voices and it's interesting because out there in the world, by some chance, one of my friends who's on Instagram,
[00:06:44] FAWN: She had posted, not knowing this was going on with me, but she posted out of the blue, Hey, when you hear voices in your head, you need to acknowledge what you're feeling in that moment. You need to acknowledge that you're feeling this way and tell that thought to get out. And when she said that, I was like, yeah, because you don't want someone coming into your own home and starting to spew all kinds of venom and garbage at you. He would tell the person, get the hell outta here. Right? So I was like, get out and it would work. But then other thoughts would come in and it was nonstop. It was like seriously nonstop. It was horrible. I, I couldn't explain it to anyone. And the pressure was building and I was feeling so bad, and.
[00:07:36] FAWN: So defeated and I felt like, oh my God, I will never work again. I'll never make another dollar. No one's ever gonna hire me the podcast. Should I even do the podcast? I'm ridiculous. Like all these thoughts went through my head. And so, and another thing happened, and that was, again, I was just go scrolling through social media, but I was trying to scroll to look for happy things that make me laugh
[00:08:04] FAWN: and this woman popped up and it wasn't funny, but she was saying, she was talking about self-hatred and she started to talk about how, especially in the United States, that it's really interesting that there's so much self-hatred and we don't even look at it. And I think she started to describe this story of these monks that were doing, a retreat and there were a lot of Americans there.
[00:08:32] FAWN: the monks were really surprised because the students, the meditation students, whatever they were, they were there learning. Most of them kept asking, can you please help? How do I get rid of this hate that I feel for myself? I hate myself. And they kept hearing this and they were not prepared for that.
[00:08:52] FAWN: They couldn't understand that. So the monks had to go away, co consult their own. Figure out, they had to be taught how to deal with Americans and the self-hatred because they had never seen that before. That it was, it was very bizarre to them. It was very foreign. So they had to be taught how to deal with these Americans that were experiencing self-hatred, like extreme self-hatred.
[00:09:25] FAWN: And as she was saying this, I'm like, oh, that's, . I'm like, wait a minute. That's been me the past week. And so this morning I was talking to Maryanne. She's the first person, you know, I tried to tell you and the kids like, I've been going through stuff and the kids feel it too, cuz they're now preteen and teen.
[00:09:48] FAWN: Right? And so they have issues and they feel stuff like that all the time. Not because of us, but because just in the world, right? In our society. . 
[00:09:58] MARIANNE: The self-hatred
[00:09:59] MARIANNE: and how the monks had to go back. To learn how to deal with that. 
[00:10:04] FAWN: Yeah. Deal with Americans and I, and I was thinking that, wow, that's really terrible. And I realized, well, I've been feeling the same way. And so I started to look at it and I thought about what we were talking about before, about really knowing yourself, right?
[00:10:22] FAWN: The, the art of self-awareness. I'm like, okay, so where is this coming from? I think it goes beyond my family and how I was raised. Mm-hmm. , because I was always told, you know, I'm, I'm not pretty, I'm ugly. Body shamed constantly. And it was horrible. But I don't think it came from that because I'm looking around, I'm like, everybody feels it.
[00:10:48] FAWN: And I feel like, and this is why I think it's really important for you to be here, Matt, as we're having this convers. , because I really want your perspective. I wanna know, I'm sure men feel the same way in different ways, but as I was talking to Maryanne this morning, she was the first person I could actually open up to, and I actually started crying.
[00:11:10] FAWN: And as soon as I did, I felt much better. Because she's such a great listener Maryanne. Hmm. I posed a question. Don't you think It's mostly women who feel this way, and not only do we feel it about ourselves, this self-hatred, but if we see that another woman, like a friend of ours is doing something great and is succeeding deep down, I think there's a seed of like, Hey, you can't do that.
[00:11:41] FAWN: For example, my friend got some photo jobs. , even though that's not technically, her profession that she started in, she's now a photographer, but she didn't start that way she was telling me how much she was accepting as far as wage for her work, and it was so low and I got upset and I told her that there are industry standards .
[00:12:08] FAWN: And by you accepting this minimal amount is hurting those of us who have studied this craft and there are rules to follow. There are contracts, there's so much involved. You can't just say, let me do this photo shoot. Oh, I'll just take this amount.
[00:12:27] FAWN: There's a lot to think about. There's a lot that you need to know. It's a business. So for you to, let's say for someone to come in and do this photo shoot and only charge an eighth of the amount that a, a professional photographer would charge. You are hurting all these other photographers.
[00:12:44] FAWN: You're hurting the industry. And that's what I was telling her. But as I was telling her, I wasn't talking, I wasn't speaking in a kind voice. My tone was harsh and I knew that, and I could, and I could hear her on the other end feeling bad about getting these jobs. , and I kept saying industry standard industry standards, and the call ended fine, but three in the morning I was talking to Matt about it and we were talking about it and I'm like, oh my God. I was not being supportive. She felt my venom for my own self-hatred because I haven't worked in so. that deep down I was upset with myself because mm-hmm.
[00:13:31] FAWN: I'm not working, do you know what I'm saying? And my tone was unleashed at this higher, like, terrible level as I was trying to help her out. It just, it came across horribly. Now it's all worked out. We talked about it, and it's all good. , but I'm just saying that that self-hatred, it oozes out in so many different ways that we're not even aware of.
[00:14:01] FAWN: And because we're always so busy, we don't have time to take stock unless you have insomnia like me where I can take stock on it at about it at like three in the morning and go, well, what I did was not okay. let me go back and fix it. so anyway, I've been thinking about self hatred and as I was talking to Maryanne, I asked why do you think when we get over that hurdle of doing the right thing and being on the right track, the biggest hurdle is that, why is it then that this ugly voice comes up?
[00:14:38] FAWN: That's us telling ourselves that we're not good enough. We're not attractive enough that we suck, that we're terrible, just go underground and die basically, why? Where did that come from? We have some theories, and it just led into a spider web of possibilities.
[00:15:00] FAWN: I have so many questions. I want you guys to talk. I'm sorry, I, I just talked for so long. 15 minutes. Sorry, . First of all, do you all know what I'm talking about, Matt, do you understand what I'm talking about? I completely 
[00:15:12] MATT: understand what 
[00:15:12] FAWN: you're talking about. And at some point, let's not forget to talk about the shoes.
[00:15:18] FAWN: Absolutely. And women. Women. Absolutely Women. Okay. Alright, so who wants to go first? . After my tirade. 
[00:15:25] MATT: Oh my goodness. So you want the male perspective on the whole thing? 
[00:15:28] FAWN: Well, one is, do you all, do you all as men, have this kind of self hatred? See, 
[00:15:38] MATT: we live in this world of self denial. We come up, we have excuses for everything.
[00:15:44] MATT: If. And we talked about, I talked about this when we started talking about social comparison theory, but what men are able to do is, you know, let's pretend we're running right, or we, you know, you and I are both Olympic sprinters or whatever it is, right? There's an objective measure to who is faster, right?
[00:16:02] MATT: So you can run a hundred meters a second faster than me. He cheated. He got off the line too fast. He's wearing lighter shoes. I can come up with a million excuses and we're really good at doing this. You know, look at the classic case of the male comb over for god's sake. , I mean, seriously, right? What do you mean?
[00:16:22] MATT: What do you mean? So man starts balding the man, combs it over, even if it's God 
[00:16:29] FAWN: awful. Even if there's three strands of hair, 
[00:16:31] MATT: especially if it's God awful. Yes. You know, I'm, I'm looking, I'm thinking about like my father and he did a comb over. Okay, fine. Whatever. My hair's all natural though, baby. Anyways.
[00:16:44] MATT: Um, even today, he believes he's a complete utter catch and. Yeah, he's, he does, he's perhaps looking to move on. He does feel out way. Now where does that come from? . It, it, I remember seeing a Simpsons episode. Homer Simpson is looking in the mirror and he's imagining himself full of hair with big muscles.
[00:17:04] MATT: This, we lied to ourselves extremely convincingly. Hmm. Now the question is how do we get away with it? Where did we learn how to do that and all the rest of it. But it is what we do. We're really good at coming up with excuses why someone else is better. It's, it's never because of skill, it's always luck.
[00:17:27] FAWN: Mm-hmm. Okay. So where did that come from? Because women, we have to work way harder and we do things perfectly, as much as we can. Things have to be perfect. But men get, uh, this is gonna sound terrible, but you have it easier. You get things handed to you. We have to fight so hard to achieve the same thing that you may be handed.
[00:17:53] FAWN: Do you? It sounds too, I completely understand. Like for example, I was telling, was I telling you Marianne about how I hid my pregnancy for seven months? Yes. Seven and a half months. Yes. Because it was hard enough getting a job as a, as a woman to get the big commercial jobs. And then once, you know, I was in speaking with someone and close to getting the job, I didn't want them to know I was pregnant.
[00:18:19] FAWN: So I was, and then once I got the job, I was doing crazy things while I was pregnant. I was climbing scaffolding with no one helping me at nine months pregnant. Do you know what I'm saying? Just because I, it's like I, we kill ourselves, I feel like, as women, to try to succeed. And I feel like men have it easier now
[00:18:44] FAWN: I know how that sounds and it probably sounds terrible. It's a terrible sound bite coming from me, but what, what can you say to that? I'm sure there are other women who can like explain it in a more intelligent manner, but this is how I am. Right? 
[00:19:01] MATT: And I'm trying to figure out a way I can say things without coming off in a terrible sound bite mode, but on some level.
[00:19:10] MATT: We ha ha have to lie to ourselves, otherwise we'd be paralyzed and we'd never managed to do anything. Mm. And it becomes tricky then, as a male to not do that. We're so quickly, effortlessly, and easily defined by what we do for work. We get locked into that and everything else is everything else. And it's quote unquote not important to the external.
[00:19:40] FAWN: Wow. Yeah. You were told 
[00:19:42] MATT: basically we get to suck it up. We get locked into the now. But then on the other hand, we also are theoretically, traditionally given all sorts of love and support from, you know, mom as it were. And I don't know if girls get a similar ride and you obviously didn't, but like, oh yes, you're the man of the house.
[00:20:04] MATT: You're, oh my God, you're getting so strong. So, you know, I would hear this from all my relatives. , you know, I do not know, I do not believe my sister got the same messages. Mm-hmm. , I think she just had radio silence. So it wasn't what you had, which was very negative, but it, it wasn't, there was no positive affirmation.
[00:20:22] MATT: Like I remember hearing like my aunt would say, oh, you're getting so handsome. And it's like, I am well, but at some point I started to believe it. Can I just, which 
[00:20:32] FAWN: is not a bad. . Well, okay. I, I guess we need other women and I need to hear what Marrianne has to say, but like, what I heard, this is legit word for word was, uh, I was told , so I, I saved up enough money to send myself to college.
[00:20:53] FAWN: Mm-hmm. to pay cash for just a little bit until I figure things out down the line. , I was told, if you're gonna go to college, you're gonna, you think you're gonna move away on your own? You are gonna end up being a prostitute on the street selling your body. Mm-hmm. , there's no way you're gonna make it. I heard that from my sister and then who's older, like 14 years older, and I heard it from my mom.
[00:21:21] FAWN: Same thing, like I, I did a photo shoot for this rock band that was pretty famous. . And when she found out how much I charged them, which was not even that much, she had me go and give the cash back. How dare you? Who do you think you are? And I think I was smart enough to not do that, but to be told that.
[00:21:44] FAWN: And I didn't think it affected me, but like 10, 15 years later, I was so scared to charge anything and I was, I was a baristas. Serving coffee rather than doing commercial shoots that I did in high school, had no qualms saying This is how my charge, how much, how much I charge. No qualms back then, you know, or what, or I remember, um, I did a photo shoot at a, I was at a shooting a concert and I gave, you know, I had tickets, so my family members got tickets too, and I was too young to drive, so my sister drove
[00:22:24] FAWN: and she kept following me around Every shot I was trying to take, she was in my ear telling me that I suck. She was evil. Like I remember working out at the gym. She came and sat at a bicycle while I was running on the treadmill and she would just sit on the bike, not even riding it and tell me how fat I was, which I wasn't at all by the way.
[00:22:49] FAWN: I was so not fat that I was. and I should really work out as I was running on the treadmill. Like this was the kind of, um, mind, love, and support. This is what I had growing up, so it's not normal. And then that night that I photographed, um, the concert that I got the ride from, and she kept whispering, I, I suck, I suck.
[00:23:11] FAWN: She left me there. I was out in the valley in LA at. She just took off and went home. She just left me there and thank goodness my cousin was there. So he drove me to his house and I slept on their couch. His mom didn't like me, my aunt, my uncle's wife. And in the morning when she thought I was still asleep, she's on the phone with my mother saying, oh, yeah, yeah, she's here.
[00:23:39] FAWN: She's here. Oh, and then I could hear something about photography, this photography. and she's like, oh, don't worry about her and the photography thing, she's just a girl. She's never gonna make anything of herself. And that's what I heard. Is that normal? I don't know. I, I would think not, but 
[00:23:58] MARIANNE: I'm having so many thoughts that are swirling, but I believe it's all centering around valuing yourself.
[00:24:07] MARIANNE: And I read some quote the other day that said if you don't value yourself, you'll always sell yourself short. And that's been resonating in my mind. And I think that it also has to do with the judgment and the cruelty from your female relatives that they didn't value themselves. So how could they possibly value you?
[00:24:38] MARIANNE: And you are a threat to them because you were growing and you were growing into the world and perhaps in a weird, very like backwards way they were trying to protect you. Just like our inner voice tries to protect us when we're about to take a big leap of 
[00:24:58] FAWN: growth. And that's what you said at the coffee shop about your inner voice is being that way because it's trying to protect you.
[00:25:09] FAWN: and then I said, oh my God, that reminds me of this experiment that I heard of. And again, I'm sorry, I don't know where I heard this experiment, but it's something like this. There's a room of monkeys, all right, at a test lab. And there's, you know, what do you call those scientists that, with their clipboards that are like, you know, they're, they're documenting things.
[00:25:30] FAWN: The scientists right at the lab so there, there's a bunch of monkeys in a room, and then there's a ladder with banana on top, right? And so every time a monkey climbs the ladder to get the banana, they would beat the hell outta that monkey, right? And so then another monkey would try and the monkey would get totally beaten.
[00:25:56] FAWN: And so it got to the point. , anytime a monkey went up the ladder to get the banana, then the monkey started beating that monkey like, don't do it. Don't, because this is what's gonna happen to you. So don't. And so then they would take one monkey out and then they would bring in a new monkey who didn't know what was going on.
[00:26:18] FAWN: So the new monkey comes in and goes, cool. There's a banana. I'm gonna go for the banana. And the monkeys would beat that monkey that was trying to strive for the banana. And so over time they would take out an older monkey that was, that was witness to the beatings from the people in charge .
[00:26:38] FAWN: And you get to a point where there are no more original monkeys that experienced the violence from the lab testers, whatever they're. . And so when a new monkey came in, they would beat it up. And then eventually you get to a point where you're like, you're still behaving in this terrible way and you have no idea what the source was.
[00:27:02] FAWN: Why are you behaving that way? Why can't you go for the banana? And I wonder in in what ways are we all living like this because of some bizarre rule that was set up by someone ridiculous. And it's not just that it, it, it's on so many levels. This happens. I always talk about like when we talked to Joey and, uh, and we were trying to figure out why our ancestors, like what did our ancestors go through?
[00:27:36] FAWN: What happened to our parents? What happened to our grandparents. , you know, like Joey's grandfather was, in the death march, right? He survived the death march. Armenian. Hmm, okay. Never spoke about it, ever. But when you go through trauma like that, you behave a certain way. And then it gets passed down from generation to generation.
[00:28:05] FAWN: And if you don't talk about it, you don't know why the behavior is this way. You don't know why this parent is so closed off because you don't know, because they never expressed their pain. It wasn't safe for them maybe to, there are so many reasons why. . In what ways are we behaving in our society?
[00:28:25] FAWN: How has our society turned out the way it has? In what ways have we been the monkey with the banana? Hmm. That we don't strive for anymore. And when we do, we have these terrible voices in our heads. It's just like getting beaten up. I'm beating myself up saying I'm a horrendous beast. That doesn't even deserve to write a book.
[00:28:50] FAWN: Am I the only one who feels this way? 
[00:28:53] MARIANNE: Absolutely not. 
[00:28:56] MARIANNE: I think for me personally, as I have grown in the past few years and gone through like a lot of cleansing in moments, that voice will come up. And then just this year actually, I decided my. , my word of the year would be soften. Mm-hmm. . So that when I have those intense reactions, which I still do have, thankfully less frequently, I just kind of remind myself soften.
[00:29:27] MARIANNE: Mm-hmm. , because I don't want it to stop. I can't put a stop to that thought. That's natural. But I soften when I'm 
[00:29:36] FAWN: aware.
[00:29:37] FAWN: What thought is natural? You mean the negative thought? The 
[00:29:41] MARIANNE: editing. I think that I read that somewhere. It's the editor in your mind that is telling you, you're terrible. Your book sucks. You're ugly, whatever else. Fill in the blank. Mm-hmm. , because it's protecting you from going out into the world where you're going to get lots of judgment and criticism.
[00:30:08] FAWN: What do you think, Matt? Do you think it's that or do you think it's some entity that's fed us that information to the point where we don't know, it feels like it's us, but maybe it's it's not us. Maybe that voice came from someone else and I was, and I say that because , Matt's laughing cuz I'm interrupting him again.
[00:30:28] FAWN: But look, for example, Matt, the other. Last night I was rewatching Ted Lasso. Mm-hmm. . And what's the woman's name? Who owns the football? Rebecca. Rebecca. So I'm watching Rebecca, who's this phenomenal business woman like that. Big guns. Yeah, she's very powerful. Meaning arms like physically stunning.
[00:30:50] FAWN: Physically gorgeous. Gorgeous, woman. Powerful. You know what I'm saying? Like, perfect, perfect figure. . She's not a wafe, but she's a perf like gorgeous in ways like gorgeous, right? And obviously very powerful in business in every way, and, and I'm looking at her in the scene, but my mind as I'm watching the whole scene, I look at the woman's shoes, obviously she's dressed with like head to toe in designer.
[00:31:24] FAWN: Beautiful. Gorgeous, everything. Gorgeous dress, gorgeous hair, gorgeous makeup, gorgeous earrings, gorgeous shoes. We would normally say gorgeous shoes, but I was looking in her shoes. I'm like, oh, everything about her is powerful. But those shoes, like all that statuesque, gorgeousness, all the weight is on her.
[00:31:51] FAWN: The pads of her feet. . I'm like, how is that powerful? And Maryanne, you and I started laughing cause I'm like, yeah, I would wear those shoe shoes to go track down a tiger. Like that's what I'm gonna wear. . Like, how is that powerful? How is that okay to do that to your feet and do that to your posture? Do that to your body.
[00:32:15] FAWN: And then I watched her walk across the room. I'm like, oh my God. She's like, tick, tick, tick. You know? Like she wasn't walking like a football player, you know? She wasn't walking like normal. It was like tiptoeing, like how is that powerful? 
[00:32:34] MARIANNE: I have the feeling as a woman that we've been told that we are supposed to present ourselves in a way that's a performance.
[00:32:45] MARIANNE: We are here to perform and we're here to outperform another female. Mm-hmm. , I'm not quite sure what that's about, 
[00:32:54] MATT: to find the best mate. 
[00:32:56] MARIANNE: Hmm. 
[00:32:58] MATT: Which is an, 
[00:32:59] MARIANNE: that's logical, 
[00:32:59] MATT: an interesting thing to think about because then that circles back to, I need to be in self, I need to make sure that I don't let these thoughts encroach upon me that I'm not good enough because I gotta figure out some way to provide.
[00:33:13] MATT: Hmm. Provide. and welcome to evolution, and an evolution is a nasty beast. 
[00:33:23] FAWN: So that's how a man thinks, is I'm not gonna concentrate on that. I have a job to do, right? 
[00:33:28] MATT: I, I've got to kill the wooly mammoth. I have to bring the crops in from harvest. I have to, uh, hunt the wolf that is killing my sheep, or whatever it is.
[00:33:43] FAWN: So how does 
[00:33:43] MATT: that. and I can't afford because I'll starve. 
[00:33:47] FAWN: Mm-hmm. . But how, how, how does that come into the woman wearing the stilettos? 
[00:33:53] MATT: She needs to compete for my affections. That's how my father would say it. 
[00:33:56] FAWN: But this is in business, 
[00:33:58] MATT: it doesn't matter. Mm-hmm. , I'm welcome to evolution. Mm-hmm. , 
[00:34:02] FAWN: I don't understand.
[00:34:03] FAWN: Help me. 
[00:34:04] MATT: It doesn't, it doesn't make sense in the modern day society. But because it made sense for a hundred thousand years, oh my God, it's 
[00:34:11] FAWN: still with us. Are you saying that the woman is trying to please the man? 
[00:34:16] MATT: And you see that's the sound bite that gets me in trouble. 
[00:34:19] FAWN: Oh my God. 
[00:34:20] MATT: No, I'll say it. . I lose. I lose the sound by wars 
[00:34:22] MATT: on that one, folks.
[00:34:23] FAWN: No, I said it. I 
[00:34:25] FAWN: said it. So we're still you Say that again. Basically, we're dressing for the man. We're trying to have the man's approval. , I have to look good. And she's the boss. Hmm? Who? Who, who, why? 
[00:34:41] MATT: And do you, do you remember further on the episode? She's out and she's introducing her new boyfriend to another couple and it takes the man coming out and saying, he's fine, but why are you settling for fine?
[00:34:59] MATT: Your electric, your magic? Why is fine good enough for you? 
[00:35:04] FAWN: Hmm. Yeah. It took a man to say that, and her girlfriend did not say that to her. I 
[00:35:11] MARIANNE: just got an electric chill from that 
[00:35:14] FAWN: line. Another lesson from Ted Lasso. I wish those writers would come on our show. I love them so much. It's a phenomenal show, 
[00:35:25] MARIANNE: which I have yet to see.
[00:35:26] FAWN: I can't believe it. Maryanne
[00:35:31] FAWN: You're gonna love it so much. In a way I envy you because to, to watch it and to experience the magic, you know, like to discover it. Mm-hmm. , you're like, ah, ah, the world is a better place. . 
[00:35:44] MATT: But anyways, back to art, self-hatred, listening, self-hatred. Okay. You know, literally I don't have time. I don't have time.
[00:35:53] MATT: And those points in time that I do listen to those voices, cuz while I don't have time, they do occur. Stress levels go through the roof and you know, welcome, welcome to that craziness. And then you have to get away, period, end of story, and find a place where there isn't as much stress or even hopefully no stress.
[00:36:15] MATT: But welcome to, welcome to Life. 
[00:36:18] MARIANNE: May I ask a question, Matt? Of 
[00:36:22] MATT: course. We're all friends here. 
[00:36:24] MARIANNE: Of course. It just went away. 
[00:36:27] MATT: Yay. I win.
[00:36:31] FAWN: Hmm. Meanwhile, will you remind 
[00:36:35] MARIANNE: me of what you just said?
[00:36:37] MATT: Stress levels. Oh, welcome to 
[00:36:39] MARIANNE: evolution. Thank you. As you are a male providing, so therefore there's no time for self-hatred, self-judgment in the moment. Are you shoving thoughts away from you? 
[00:36:57] MATT: Oh yeah. Big time. 
[00:36:58] MARIANNE: So that when they do come back or are in a bunch of these types of thoughts, that's like, I can't even imagine that feeling of delayed processing.
[00:37:10] FAWN: Well, maybe that's why men don't live as long as women. . Mm. 
[00:37:15] MATT: And and honestly, yes, I can tell. And there were points in time where I was like, okay, I do not have time to deal with this, so Mm. We'll just worry about this later. Mm. And it came out in 
[00:37:25] MATT: terrible ways. 
[00:37:26] FAWN: Terrible ways. Like, for example, can I say some example of when Elle was born?
[00:37:31] MATT: Sure. 
[00:37:32] FAWN: So, , 
[00:37:33] FAWN: two days before Elle was born, Matt's best friend passes away. Mm. and then I go into labor like a day and a half later and he's just going to shove that away so he can focus on the birth. And then Matt has to experience me almost dying and Ella almost dying at the hospital.
[00:37:55] FAWN: Mm-hmm. And then coming home two and a half weeks later out of the hospital, like what major trauma his boss decides to slash his pay in. And because of all these things he was going through, he, it's like he, he didn't feel strong anymore cuz he had this burden and he had to deal with this terrible boss doing something terrible.
[00:38:24] FAWN: Normally he would've said, well, I'm out, I quit, but kept going. 
[00:38:30] MATT: Didn't feel like an option at that. . 
[00:38:33] MATT: Yeah, you just, we were on a treadmill. I was on a treadmill and I was just trying to, trying to deal with the treadmill 
[00:38:40] MATT: and , if I 
[00:38:41] FAWN: brought it up, he would get upset. I'm like, can we talk about Chris?
[00:38:45] FAWN: And he talk, he would get mad. He would get mad and then he would think that I was trying to tell him to just get over it. I wasn't, I was trying to have him talk about it so he could. , but what he heard was get over it. . You know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . But like, and I'm like, look, things are gonna happen more and more, so we need to deal with it.
[00:39:05] FAWN: You can't keep storing things up. But like so much happened after that. Like more stuff kept, the hits kept coming until Matt almost died. Like, you know, like it was horrible. But because, I'm sorry, now he looks really stressed. , but, and that's, that's the thing, when we don't have a community, like it was just us.
[00:39:28] FAWN: We had no family, no one. It was just us, no one to talk to. And it was stupid Bainbridge Island too. Like we, that, this is how the whole friendship thing came about, because we're like, whoa. Have lost the art of friendship. 
[00:39:47] MATT: We got like three 
[00:39:47] MATT: Castros when Elle was born and dropped off at our house cuz nobody wanted to actually talk to us
[00:39:54] FAWN: We had no one to talk to. That's why we started this thing because we felt all this pain of loneliness and this is coming from us. I. . We had so many friends. I traveled as a photographer around the world and I met family everywhere I went. No trouble making friends and reuniting with like cosmic friends, you know what I'm saying?
[00:40:23] FAWN: Like how we met. Mm-hmm. , Maryanne, how we met you. It was like, that's when we were like,
[00:40:28] FAWN: it 
[00:40:29] MATT: was easy. 
[00:40:29] FAWN: Yeah. Our mojo was back like 
[00:40:31] MARIANNE: very easy that's. 
[00:40:33] FAWN: , our friend Mojo was back and I don't know, was it timing? Was it because we started the podcast and we were expressing our emotions for so long? Was it because of this area we live in?
[00:40:46] FAWN: I don't know. 
[00:40:46] MATT: And 
[00:40:47] MATT: honestly, it's also, I do release my emotions 
[00:40:50] FAWN: now you do
[00:40:51] MATT: yes, and I'll, yeah, but sometimes it comes out really terribly. 
[00:40:54] MATT: Had to
[00:40:55] FAWN: knock on wood . 
[00:40:56] MATT: Sometimes it comes out really terribly. Yeah, I do find ways, but I'm releasing emotions and I'm not a hundred percent sure where the heck they came from.
[00:41:04] MATT: Hmm. That, like I said, we don't 
[00:41:07] FAWN: know because some of it has been pickling for so many years. It's now turned into something else. It's unrecognizable. 
[00:41:15] MATT: Right. It's completely unrecognizable. 
[00:41:17] FAWN: That's why it's good to watch movies that make you cry. Mm-hmm. just to sob. Sob it out. Mm-hmm. . 
[00:41:23] MATT: I never watch movies that make me cry , but my eyes sometimes sweat when I watch movies.
[00:41:29] MATT: sometimes. And for the love of God. Yes. Stupid Ricky Jervais in a stupid series. Afterlife stupid. 
[00:41:39] FAWN: He loves him. That's a good, explain Stupid. You don't really mean that. I don't really mean that. But he loves Jaqui. 
[00:41:45] MATT: It's a man Jaqui survey. It's a man falling down. And I can, yeah, I can empathize with him.
[00:41:51] FAWN: What's the name? "Afterlife". And it's Ricky Jervais. It's Ricker. 
[00:41:56] MATT: Ricky Jervais. And unfortunately it, yeah, that's done last season wasn't as good as the others. 
[00:42:02] FAWN: But that was definitely, um, it was very cathartic to watch cathartic. That's the word I was looking for. Yeah. 
[00:42:10] MARIANNE: Do you think males require a prompt to process heavy things?
[00:42:20] MATT: It's a question of definitely I was overwhelmed and I didn't have a vocabulary to deal with. You know, I am, I'm still. , and I'm going to be young forever, by the way. I'm still young. I still think like a little eight year old. Most of the time. I got like miscreant thoughts all the time I love, but I didn't have a voca.
[00:42:42] MATT: I didn't understand what it would mean for like a friend from high school to pass. Literally don't understand that. I, I, I feel, and again, welcome to welcome to the Male Mind, but I feel just as good as I ever have. Hm. or at least convince myself I 
[00:43:02] FAWN: do.
[00:43:06] FAWN: You said that with a stiff upper 
[00:43:08] MATT: lip . I believe right now, you know, my, my greatest physical feat I biked from the bottom to the top of Mount Wilson in California. Heck of a thing. I believe I could do that today. There's no way. But I believe I can. emotionally. I believe I can. Hmm. Logically I know I can't, but emotionally I do.
[00:43:27] MATT: Hmm. And I do. But, uh, what I do know, logically and emotionally as if I trained for it for a year, I could do it again.
[00:43:34] FAWN: And it's like all this pressure we put on ourselves. So going back to acupuncture and what she released, she's like, how are you this week? I'm like, uh, fine. And then I'm like, actually, let me tell you what happened, . Um, and she's like, when did this happen? I'm like, oh, couple days after the treatment with the lungs and everything.
[00:43:54] FAWN: She's like, oh yeah, oh yeah, that, that will happen. I'm like, thanks for the heads up. I mean, I should have known, cuz I've been doing acupuncture, going acupuncture for so long, but
[00:44:03] FAWN: here's what she said. She was like, how do you feel? I'm like, you know, whatever. I told her, and she's like, well, what do you want to feel? I'm like, well, I wanna feel pretty, I wanna feel thin. I want to, like, I started listing like all these things that we should be in society, right? I'm like, look at, she's looking at me like, what's your problem?
[00:44:23] FAWN: Like, what do you mean you wanna be thin? I'm like, , I want to look this way and just make it happen. . And she's like, um, like, like obviously from her face, I could tell she was like, oh, honey, like there's a problem, . And then she, and she goes, well, what do you mean exactly? I'm like, well, I used to be a martial artist and I was a yoga teacher not long ago.
[00:44:55] FAWN: I wanna be back in fighting shape . And she's like, and she just in a very kind, beautiful way, rolled her eyes, but not, she wasn't rolling her eyes in judgment. She was rolling her eyes in. Um, girl, I'm with you on that. Let me tell you something. like, 
[00:45:15] MARIANNE: girl, 
[00:45:16] FAWN: I understand she, cuz she was also a yoga teacher and she looks fit right now, but she's like, let me tell you, so.
[00:45:24] FAWN: I stopped, you know, I, once you start teaching yoga and like, I just stopped yoga. I'm like, you too. She's like, yeah, me too. And she goes, and I just went to do a downward dog, which is like a simple move. And she's like, this does not feel good,
[00:45:40] FAWN: She's like, I could have done this way better. I can't do it anymore. Like, I can't, I'm not doing it the way I used to. and she said, you know what, that was a different person back then. Mm-hmm. , I'm a different person now, and that suited me in my purpose back then. That's not my purpose now. And the way she said that to me , it was such a relief to hear.
[00:46:03] FAWN: I'm like, you're right. I'm not the same person. I don't need yoga the way I needed it back then. And I, I'm not the same person. I don't have the same needs. So it's okay to let that go. It's okay not to be able to climb Mount Everest today. It suited your needs back then. You're doing different climbs right now.
[00:46:25] FAWN: Mm-hmm. . And so that's what she reminded me of. By the way, she's gonna be on our show in a couple weeks. Um, you know what I'm saying, Matt? Absolutely. And you too. Marrianne. Marianne's. Oh yes. And so that was helpful. 
[00:46:39] MARIANNE: The whole piece of growth. I think that when you are in a state of being a yoga teacher or being the thing that you used to be, and then you realize sometime later could be much time later, and you are comparing yourself to that person, but you're not comparing yourself in the ways that you've grown.
[00:46:59] MARIANNE: You're only seeing the things that you don't have 
[00:47:01] FAWN: anymore. Oh, my god's so. So true. That's this. See, I love talking to you, Marianne. I love 
[00:47:07] MARIANNE: talking to you. Oh my God. So, and that's where that word soften has been such a gift to me this year, and I'm sure beyond that, all the things that I think I'm supposed to be or someone else thinks I'm supposed to be, or if I'm upset about something or something gets triggered, it's just softening to everything.
[00:47:32] FAWN: and getting back to the question, where did all this come from? Is it truly our voice that's saying that? Because if it was truly our own selves, why would we beat ourselves up for wanting the banana that we obviously deserve? Hmm. Our voice would not say , I'm gonna, and our voice would not cane us. We would not naturally cane ourselves, hurt ourselves who are trying to achieve a banana.
[00:48:05] FAWN: So my question at the coffee shop this morning was, where do you think this comes from? And then before you had a chance to answer, I'm like, let me tell you where I think it comes from.
[00:48:17] FAWN: And then I started sounding like a total conspiracy. But I was like, what if it's a power trying to hold us down from achieving greatness? Because this is the kind of thing that does change the world. And then we started talking about all the people in the world that have been offed.
[00:48:35] FAWN: Mm-hmm. from biblical times to great spiritual leaders 
[00:48:42] MARIANNE: for being independent thinkers, 
[00:48:44] FAWN: amazing musicians.
[00:48:46] FAWN: I don't want to totally get into it cuz I'll sound like a, a crazy person. or I, I'll get myself in trouble, but, or perhaps an independent 
[00:48:55] MARIANNE: thinker. Thank you.
[00:49:00] FAWN: You know, I had a teacher once that told me, told the whole class at the end of every class, he would say chop your wood and don't worry about where the chips fly. Because yeah, in the past you may have gotten crucified or you may have gotten hurt for your ideas and, and your, good actions. But in this life, you are safe. . So just do your work, chop your wood, and don't worry about where the chips fly.
[00:49:28] FAWN: You are protected. Hmm. And that thought was protection. I try to remind myself that. But again, where did this thought come from? It came from somewhere else. The thought that says all the terrible. . And then if you get over that, then you, then other things creep up that you weren't even expecting, like getting your self shoved into some stilettos that are ridiculous.
[00:49:55] FAWN: Hmm. So are the powerful people, meaning like women are extremely powerful. Look at our bodies. Why do we hate our bodies when our bodies do amazing, miraculous things. Giving birth to life more life , like it is fascinating. When I was pregnant every day I went in the bathroom. I'm like, now what are you doing
[00:50:20] FAWN: You know, like I was like, what are you doing? It's making someone else's brain and lungs and like complex neuro system and nerves and I, I mean things that doctors still don't know about. I feel like just recently doctors understood what a vagus nerve was like. Really? Come on. Fantastic. , why would a woman hate her body?
[00:50:45] FAWN: It is, it is shameful. And there is more hate there too. Like now you should be ashamed for feeling shame about your body. Mm-hmm. , . I didn't mean that, but, and I'm sure men feel the same way. I'm sure men feel it in a different way. I can only speak from my own outrage. , do you know what I'm saying? But for you, Matt, I, I interrupted him again.
[00:51:07] FAWN: I'm sorry. But for you, I can see the world is on your shoulders and I'm so sorry about that.
[00:51:17] FAWN: And I thank God for you every day. Hmm. Because I couldn't provide for our family the way you do. I wish I could. I was striving to, and I wanna thank.
[00:51:32] FAWN: Thank you. 
[00:51:35] MATT: I don't know what I can say to 
[00:51:36] FAWN: that. Well, where do you think this comes from, you guys? And then let's wrap it up. It's a huge conversation, but, and then we'll bring it with a, a pretty little bow. . Make it light again.
[00:51:54] MATT: I think just welcome to society placing different values and burdens on boys and girls. Mm-hmm. . And there's certain things that I feel like I don't have a choice but to do and I have a choice but not to do. And most of those not to dos have been eroded over the past few generations, but not the to-dos.
[00:52:17] MATT: So they're just things I have to do. I just have to get done and I can't afford to let anything stop me, so I'll sell down the river denial all day, all night to make those things happen.
[00:52:31] FAWN: Any thoughts, Marianne? Too many, I feel you, but Okay. Here's my thought, my suggestion. Let's grab the banana and pass it around to everyone.
[00:52:44] MATT: Everybody gets a bite?
[00:52:46] FAWN: Every, there's more than one banana. There's, there's enough banana for everyone. So let's have a feast 
[00:52:53] MARIANNE: and we can 
[00:52:53] MARIANNE: lift one another. Yes. Getting the 
[00:52:55] MARIANNE: banana.
[00:52:55] FAWN: Yeah. I know how to climb the ladder. I'll grab the banana and I'll throw it to you guys. Heyo, you know? Right. It's, that's what friendship is for. That's why we're doing what we're doing. The Art of Friendship. It's 
[00:53:07] MATT: about getting past this world of scarcity into a place of abundance, which I know a lot of pundits have thrown down lately, or lately, over the past, like 10 years or so.
[00:53:18] MATT: You know, and, and firm belief in the saying, a rising tide lifts all ships. It's not every business. . Every business talks about cutting costs, right? Mm-hmm. , we're gonna go into cost cutting mode, but no business ever says we're going to go into growth mode. Growth mode, like accidentally happens, but not cost cutting mode.
[00:53:41] MATT: That's a very deliberate decision, A very deliberate choice. Mm-hmm. . Well, what if you could make the deliberate decision to be in growth mode 
[00:53:48] FAWN: Exactly. And help each 
[00:53:50] MARIANNE: other's 
[00:53:51] FAWN: growth. Yes. Rising tide.
[00:53:54] MARIANNE: A quick thought. With the art of friendship and the art of listening. Why I love listening is I heard a quote many years ago that when you truly listen to a friend, that person can hear themselves more, and then you can help your friend's self-awareness develop.
[00:54:21] FAWN: Mm. Beautifully said. Let's close it with that, thank you for listening everyone. We'll talk to you in just a few days. Take care. We love you. Please make sure you download, ask anyone you meet. If you could tell them about our podcast, ask them to go to our friendly world Download episodes and leave us a kind review, help the show to further progres
[00:54:48] FAWN: and so hopefully we can spread the word and create a friendlier society where we're all supporting one another. Living happily and having a beautiful every day. Talk to you soon. Be well. Bye, peace. Bye-bye.