The Orange Peel Test

The Orange 
Fawn: [00:00:00] Matt bought new pairs of jeans, everybody. 
MATT: I bought a new pair of jeans. No, you 
Fawn: got Trousers. You got at least two. Well 
MATT: Trousers. Yes. And then I have some flannel lined. 
Fawn: They're coming today. But we'll see how they are. But Wow, it's it's like a blue moon situation. Wait, blue moons are happening a lot more lately.
We have wolf moons, 
MATT: all kinds of moons. Yes, they do that, but a blue moon is the second full moon in a month. 
Fawn: Anyway, whatever happens like once in a decade, whatever moon that is, Matt is getting new jeans. Do you say jeans in the UK, you guys? What do you say in other countries? Trousers, dungarees. Because we sure should not use the word pants in England.
I learned that the very difficult way, as I lived with a host family as an American student and I came down showing them my outfit saying, which pants should I wear? In front of the host mom and [00:01:00] dad and they were terrified, like mortified, cause I, pants mean like pretty panties, which panties should I wear today?
MATT: Really not a good question to ask a host family. 
Fawn: Anyway, especially as a, like, teenage girl asking a man. There you go. Alright, um, anyways. Anyway, um, today we're talking about orange peels. Orange peels? Orange peels theory as a way to Test or gauge. Is it gauge? Is that the word? Gauge? 
MATT: It's a test. Yes, it's a gauge.
You know, to, 
Fawn: to figure out. Response. Yeah, to figure out where your strengths are in a relationship. Like, what the strength of the relationship is. And it 
MATT: all boils down to this. 
Fawn: It all boils down to the orange peel. But, you know what? I went looking for it on TikTok. I'm not a huge TikTok user, but I couldn't really find it, but I do know the hubbub around it.
[00:02:00] And I want to diverge for a second. Speaking of orange peels, the last two months, every time, I, so, I don't know if it's a Persian thing, I don't know if it's like a non American thing, but, like, one of the tests is, you ask your partner, hey, can you peel an orange for me? First of all, a Persian would never ask because we're always peeling oranges and apples and stuff like that and cucumbers.
 If we're not peeling it, we're slicing it and giving it to you constantly. Am I not? Am I not, Matt? True. Am I constantly not peeling oranges and tangerines and offering you very lovingly half of each one that I open? Yes. With the whole family all sharing. But anyways, come on. No, I'm just saying, well, that's the task, right?
It has to be done in a loving way. Like how, it's a small way, it's a small ask, is to ask your friend to peel an orange for you. If they do it, it means they're open to supporting you with small, [00:03:00] small asks, like it's no big deal. If they don't, it will show that they're not really supportive or perhaps I dare I say a little selfish.
MATT: And let's be careful because, obviously we're not talking about that one case where, I don't know how to slice an orange or I feel self conscious about 
Fawn: doing oranges. Even if you don't know, like, come on. It's an orange. Figure it out. Monkeys can do it. You know, you say that on that side of it.
Uh, all animals know how to peel stuff. Come on. So that see that that's that's where I have an issue with I'm like, okay Oh, I'm getting I see where you got the finger. 
MATT: Mm 
Fawn: hmm. I got the finger It basically it just it's a suggestion that small signs give you a scope of an overall situation I'm not a fan of tests, but it is an overall little Sign right of things to come or things that are however, just a little [00:04:00] Divergence Every time I peel either a tangerine or an orange, it's, it's quite meditative.
I take, what do you call those small, small knives that are very sharp? Like a paring knife? Thank you. A paring knife. I stand there at the counter and I slice the white part off and then you hold it up. You hold the rind, do you call it the rind? The peel, up and it's like a stained glass.
Masterpiece. this beaut and they're like these circles. The geometry in an orange peel, or a tangerine peel, or a lemon peel is beautiful. So anyway, what I do is, I put a whole bunch in a little pot of water and I boil it. And then I add a little bit of sugar, maybe some lavender, and I boil it some more, and then I take it out, and then I let it dry.
And it turns into the most fabulous tasting little sweets. Eventually I want to [00:05:00] dip them in chocolate and have them be chocolate covered. Anyway, my little orange peel theory that diverges into a dessert. Everything comes back to food for me. I love it. So anyway, going back to small signs giving you a scope of an overall what's going on with a friendship.
 Like I said, I'm not a fan of tests, but life inevitably provides situations where we're all getting tested and we find out how we perform, how we show up for people, how we show up for our friends, how our friends show up for us. For example, just like traveling with someone or asking them, yes, please, can you peel an orange for me?
You find out through just walking through life how patient someone is. How judgmental they are. Are they judgmental about me? Do they make comments regularly that cause harm rather than helping? I have so many examples of this, you guys. Like, I have a friend, every time she sees me, instead of saying, you know, here's what you can do to, [00:06:00] like, have better sleep, she's like, I'm worried about you.
You're gonna get Alzheimer's. Cause you don't sleep. I'm worried about you. That doesn't help. Thanks, ugh. No, it's harmful. Because I already have enough stress. Right. Thank you. Okay. Do they reciprocate energetically to the friendship? Do their lips disappear when they see me? Do their lips disappear when they see you or when you're talking?
There is, okay, I don't remember her name, but there is person, who did, this major TED Talk. I think she was in FBI or, yeah, one of those big government things where they, she can spot a liar, like she can read people. And one of the things she teaches is, when someone's lips disappear, they don't like what they're hearing.
When their lips disappear, they don't like what they hear. Mm hmm. So, I've also seen it through the years, like, they're also, they don't like [00:07:00] what they're seeing. Like they don't like you maybe or like a part of you. So I've seen many lips disappear in front of me Do they listen to your concerns or do they end up doing what they want even though it was specifically Communicated that one thing that you needed.
Does that make sense? It does do they Conveniently forget that you paid for an expensive dinner and that the next time was their turn Do they conveniently forget? Every time, 
MATT: anyway. And it can be almost as bad if they always, like let's say, they always pay and you never attempt to pay. Like there needs to be a balance to the force.
Fawn: Right,
MATT: but both, on both sides. Both from the person who's generous and the person who is maybe receiving. [00:08:00] 
Fawn: So I didn't even know that there was this orange peel theory because we were talking about it at home with the kids and I was talking about How I'm seeing that one of my friendships.
Um, it's being What do you call it? Like you see the different layers of an onion. Mm hmm. I'm like, okay I'm seeing a different layer of the onion I feel like I always drop everything and go way out of my way including you guys I involve you guys in it To celebrate or to do favors for this friend and her family.
Right. But the one time I asked for a favor Was so like let's say their husband works for a major company That's the company that you want to work for is the big umbrella company of this company. Okay So I said hey, do you mind if I ask your husband? May I take him out to lunch to discuss? [00:09:00] How I can get into voiceovers.
Right. Is there like a, a path? Do you know anyone I can talk to to give them my demo? Mm hmm. Because he's an executive. He may know people. Thank you. He's an executive. He's been around for a while. So, instead, I get, Oh, here's a website for their, hR. Right.
Thank you. Um, so anyway. I haven't talked to this person since, really. Cause I'm still, I'm so hurt. Like I offered to take them out to lunch. I don't want to take too much time This is exactly what I want to ask. Do you mind? Right, obviously they did And then you can ask 
MATT: their husband could even short circuit the whole thing by just you know Speaking with the person and saying hey, do you know any?
Fawn: That it is and I didn't want to do that because I didn't want to be disrespectful to my friend 
MATT: Well, no, no, no, what I'm saying is you're you know, if somebody You know, came to you, for instance, and said, [00:10:00] Yeah, I'm interested, you know, my child is interested in getting into programming. Can Matt suggest anything?
You know, it's not that hard for you to then come to, you know, Oh, and then, you know, they send someone that says, Hey, yeah, I'd love to take Matt out to lunch so we can discuss. You could have just said, Hey, hey, Matt, is there any programming stuff that you could provide to my friend? Simple. 
Fawn: So, anyway, but that was, like, another thing in life, like, okay, I, I'm trying not to take it personally.
Mm hmm. I'm like, okay. Obviously it was not okay. Because I did ask, is it okay if I take him out 
MATT: to lunch? Right. They, and, but they didn't actually communicate that, right? Mm hmm. They didn't communicate, you know what, it's really not okay? 
Fawn: No. Instead I got, here's a link to HR. Right. 
MATT: Let me do what I can for you, which isn't very much, 
Fawn: and there you go.
 So we were talking about this, and the kids were like, hey, it's like the orange peel theory. I'm like, what are you talking about? [00:11:00] And then what they described, I'm like, wow. That is so Persian. We, of course, I would open an orange for you.
I would never just hand you an orange. I would totally peel it for you. No questions asked. Like, this is what I do. So it blows me away that there, there's a test, you know? Well, 
MATT: and I get it. And it doesn't, again, it doesn't have to be orange peel. You know, it's an attempt to identify a pattern and the pattern revolves around how willing is the other person, and it could be a relationship, it could be a friendship, how willing are they to accommodate small needs, and how much empathy do they really have for me?
 That's the overarching feeling of that particular quote unquote test. But again, back to, and I want to make sure I defend this because it felt like you lambasted me a little bit, but maybe oranges isn't the right [00:12:00] I suck at doing oranges, for instance. That's just it. It doesn't matter if you 
Fawn: suck.
Well, no, no, no, no. Hold on. Especially if you suck and you do it, I love you even 
MATT: more. Right, but I may not feel comfortable doing that for random, you know, for somebody randomly. That's all. That's all I'm saying. Hmm. You know, for me, it's about, for me personally, when I'm doing this, you know, I'm by nature, as it turns out, I didn't realize this, but it turns out I am, turns out not, but I'm one of the most curious people I know.
Curious? Curious. 
Fawn: Curious. Curious. Curious. 
MATT: I met somebody who was more curious than me, and it's kind of driving me a little crazy. Who's that? Oh, it's a guy at work. He's a really nice guy, too. We have a great time talking. But he's more curious than I am, at least about when we're doing stuff with AI right now.
And he's more curious about it than I am. Anyways, and it's weird. [00:13:00] But it's really highlighted how I'm more curious than most people so it's almost a natural progression for me Like I find out. Oh, yes. I am a left handed Lithuanian underwater basket weaver. I'm gonna ask you questions about it I'm gonna have questions about it like Do you bring tanks down underwater to do your basket weave?
Underwater basket weaving was one of these things when I was growing up. It was kind of a, something we would describe as like a, a class in quotes that you would take in college and get college credit for that really wasn't, you didn't learn anything. Underwater basket weaving. But I would have questions.
I'd be like, Oh, well, how are you weaving? What do you, what kind of strands do you do? What did you make? I'm always going to have these types of questions and for me, it's about like, I want to see your passion and that's how I connect with people and that's how I get a sense of it. And so if somebody is like, yes, I'm an accountant and I start asking you about being an accountant and you're like, [00:14:00] like, you don't want to answer me or you don't, you want to blow me off, then I get that you don't want to deepen the relationship.
And if we have a very casual relationship, that's fine. You know, thanks for letting me know you don't want to deepen it. 
What? Why are you laughing? 
Fawn: Um, I just love Curious People. I love it because it shows you care, and you're genuine, and there's something very loving about that. There is? You're 
MATT: not judgy. Well, I don't think curiosity really leads to judgment. 
Fawn: That's why I love, I love curious people. But 
MATT: I, I, I, that's just it.
The other side of curiosity is cautious. 
Fawn: You mean the opposite? The opposite, 
MATT: yes. Yeah. But there's nothing wrong with cautious people 
Fawn: too. Mmm, I can't be friends with cautious people because they're cautious about, it could be about anything that hurts personally my feelings. Like they're cautious about I don't know, maybe they don't like vegans.
They're cautious about [00:15:00] that. Or they're cautious because, oh, my background is Persian Jewish. They're cautious. You know, they have judgment. I think when they have judgment, that makes them cautious. I 
MATT: guess I understand where you're coming 
Fawn: at it from. And then they're not, they're not real with me because there's a wall, there's a front, there's caution all the way.
You can't be free around a caution sign. I can. 
MATT: I just ignore it. I literally go into it from such a place of like ignorance and a belief that I, that you're going to show me the best if I can just dig 
Fawn: it out of you. But Matt, if you see a caution slippery floor, you tiptoe around it, right? 
MATT: Provided I see it.
Yes, you're right. I don't see the caution though. I don't see the caution signs. 
Fawn: You just lovingly walk around and go, Hey, wet floor. How did you get wet? Exactly. 
MATT: How did you get wet? What happened? [00:16:00] You poor floor. Foist. A little moist. Foist. 
Fawn: Can I get you something? Here, here's a mop. Will that help? Oh, wait!
MATT: Wait, are you still wet? Or can I take this down? You know, can I take the sides down? 
Fawn: What kind of liquid is that?
MATT: But that's me, and I realize that that's kind of 
Fawn: an interesting But see, that's loving. That's loving instead of eww. Well, 
MATT: yes, it shows 
Fawn: empathy. For sure. Right. Right. Guys, I'm sorry. I'm, I'm sorry. I don't know. I feel like Should I have used my friend's name? Can we just, whatever. I'm really upset, guys. About that particular friendship at the moment.
Anyway, so, where do we go from here? But you know what? You know where we go from here. Matt, this brings me back to what you've always told me. Allow someone [00:17:00] to do you favors, but make sure that, wait, how do you say it, Matt? To have a really good friendship that's even? Make sure that they have you asking them a little tiny favor.
Because, do you know where I'm going with this? Can you explain it? Does it explain it 
MATT: better? I do, but I'm still a little gun shy because I got yelled at for this, right? Who yelled at you? On our show, we had that guy and he, he was not a fan of me. That guy was a jerk. Yes, but that's beside the point. Still makes me 
Fawn: gun shy.
But you know what? Our, our listeners called in and said that guy was a 
MATT: jerk. Still makes me feel a little cynical, but No, please don't. Please explain. Please explain. There has, there has to be a harmony and a balance. And that is the real key. So, you know, will you, you, everybody I think has discovered this, but like one day you wake up and you realize that you're this person in your life, you're always getting in touch with them.
They're never [00:18:00] getting in touch with you. And so you stop getting in touch with them to see what happens and then it's crickets because they'd never get in touch with you. And to me that dictates how valuable they really think you are to them, to their life, to their, you know, were you always just an annoyance when you 
Fawn: called?
And by the way, this is not a one time thing. We're talking about perpetual. This is how they are. They never call you. You know, I understand people, things happen. And you can't call. Right. But we're talking over a good length of time. We're talking about consistent behavior. 
MATT: Right. Yeah, exactly. And it's a question of there always needs to be a balance.
You know, I talk about tension in a relationship, be it. You know, a marriage or a friendship, you know, there has to be tension on both sides of it. Both sides have to care. Both sides need to be committing to it. Both sides [00:19:00] need to be trying to help it grow. 
Fawn: Yes, but Matt, please explain your theory about favors.
So, 
MATT: this is going to sound very, like, cool. No, it sounds 
Fawn: wonderful. No, please forget what that guy said. By the way, we're talking about, I think we're talking about the guy who wrote a book on community. Yes. Right? We had him on, and he was so nice to us off air, and then when we did the podcast, he was really mean to us, and then mean afterwards.
So, can you just erase that guy from your head? I will. 
MATT: Okay. The, the, the real key here is, you know, as you're attempting to get to know somebody, as you're building a relationship, and I heard this from I heard in my head this from Guy Kawasaki. I'm not going to put those words in his mouth, but I'm still going to say that's where, that's what gave me the original kind of idea about this.
Not that I wasn't doing it before, but I wasn't like being almost [00:20:00] strategic and it's the strategic aspect of it that weirds me out. But, um, basically one way to quickly deepen a relationship or a friendship is by offering them something. Or by asking them for something. And in both cases, it's something small.
So it could literally be, cause it happens to me a lot. You're at a coffee shop. You both order about the same time. And you'll notice when your drink comes up and you look for theirs and you're bringing them theirs. It doesn't even, it can be literally, and even smaller, it can literally be that small.
You're not loaning somebody a million dollars and you're not asking them for backseat tickets to blah, blah, blah, blah. It's 
Fawn: something small. It could be a micro gesture. 
MATT: Exactly. But they're big. But that helps build relationships. Yeah, 
Fawn: those micro gestures, much like micro aggressions. They are deep. 
MATT: And, [00:21:00] and the key is, honestly, and this is the key, so it has to be genuine.
Yes, of course. Well, no, no, no. And that's the key. It's like if you're doing this strictly to, you know, ingratiate or whatever people, A, they'll read it. Right. And B, you're not coming to it from an honest place. And 
Fawn: that shows you. That blows. That shows you what kind of guy that guy was that we were interviewing.
Because he went there. He went there. Because he's, he's always, um, I think he's the type of person that, is very, what do you call it? He doesn't trust anyone. True. He's not very loving. 
MATT: But I do talk about then still keeping, but I do quote unquote keep the scorecard. And I keep the scorecard for a while.
So if I'm always getting in touch with you, if, I'm remembering important days and you're not, I keep track of these things and at some point I throw that out because at some point it all harmonizes. Yes. And [00:22:00] we stop keeping score or I'll run into somebody who just makes me want to throw out this whole score book.
Yeah. Cause like, cause like we have a friend Bill and Bill gives everything. If I ask Bill for anything, he'll give it to me. That's true. And I'm not, we don't have a, we don't have the time in the field. As it were, you know, that, that says he should, but that's just his nature. He has a very generous nature with everything that he has.
And 
Fawn: yet, if you look at Bill, he looks very gruff. Oh, yes. And, like, mean. 
MATT: But it's fun, because I can say, Hey Bill, let me borrow your phone. And with some people, that's like, are you kidding, what do you want it for, and the whole bit, but with Bill he's just, I, I, I just know I can say that. Hey Bill, let me see your phone for a second.
And he's not gonna worry that I'm about to steal all the money out of his bank, nothing. 
Fawn: Or like, we had to find a painter for the house. He's like, [00:23:00] hey phone, how you doing? I'm like, oh, I told him I was stressed out cause I had to deal with these, you know, these men that are hard to talk to. I didn't say anything.
I didn't ask him for help. Next thing I know he comes with a huge list of people that he and Debbie use. Debbie, his partner. He helps you. But, but, 
MATT: okay. It makes it very challenging when you meet other 
Fawn: people, though. In a brief synopsis. Synopsis and a brief, like, two sentence thing.
explain what you told me always about doing someone a favor. In two sentences, reiterate what you just explained. See, now you're afraid to do it. You used to say it all the time. See, I'm not sure where you're going with this, so. You would say something like, let them have the opportunity where they owe you one. Because it makes them more comfortable. Because it gives them, not an upper hand, but it makes them more comfortable [00:24:00] being around you. Than something like 
MATT: that. Right. Yeah. Absolutely. Yes. 
Fawn: You, but you said it in a much more eloquent way. In a more eloquent way than I'm saying it.
Do you remember? See, you, you, you allowed for that guy to totally erase something wonderful about you. I still do it. You erased that 
MATT: from your mind. I do it. I just, it's, it's, it's almost 
Fawn: unspoken. I know, but you used to speak that bit of wisdom and I thought it was beautiful. It wasn't about tit for tat or whatever, what's the, you know, it wasn't about, it wasn't about keeping score and having the upper hand.
It felt to me, the way you would say it to me, it felt very, I want to say Persian. Where you're always offering someone something, you know, because you want the best for them, you want them to feel comfortable. It was along the same line as like, When you [00:25:00] are a host, your job is to make them comfortable, so in a relationship, in a friendship, to make the person feel more at ease and more comfortable around you, perhaps you have to put yourself on a lower level for them so they feel more comfortable around you.
So if you've done them A favor, a tiny little favor that kind of makes you seem like, look, you, you bow to them. You know what I'm saying? Respectfully. Then they feel honored or they feel like they're not beneath you. 
MATT: And they also feel then more comfortable in offering me something of a similar size or a similar thing.
Fawn: It starts a dialogue, if you will, but not with words. But it starts that kind of fluid back and forth of [00:26:00] offering things to one another. Right, giving and receiving. Giving and receiving. Thank you, Matt. Perfect. Yeah. But I really wish you would come up with the words that you would say to me. You would say it all the time, and I thought it was just so beautiful.
But anyway, I hope you guys get the gist of it, as I try to recall what Matt said. Um, but that's it. That's the bit of, that's the bit of, Orange Peel for today. Do you have anything else you want to add?
It's, 
MATT: for me, the crux of the Orange Peel test is really a test of emotional intelligence. And that is something that can be guided and learned. For example, for the kids, like I'll just, it seems like first thing in the morning, I like do 27, 000 things. And for the rest of the day, it doesn't seem like I do anything.
So if you're not paying attention, I'm a slacker. But like, in the morning, I, you know, I make sure the clothes are washed, and I [00:27:00] make sure the fresh towel's in the kitchen, and I, all these little tiny little things, because of course I'm up at god awful early in the morning. And some days I point that out to the kids.
And, you know, I'm like, do you know why I do that? And they're like, no. And I'm like, because I love you and because I love our family and I want us all to be good. But I go out of my way to create these teachable moments and really emphasize these facts. And so they don't just assume, which is a terrible word.
They don't just assume that magic, you know, little fairies come by every morning and take care of 27, 000 things for them. That this is someone who cares about them, who's taking care of them, who's taking care of all of us, and just does it. That's all. That would be what I have to add. 
Fawn: Cool. Well, let us know what you think.
MATT: So, if your significant other or friend asks you to peel an orange, just peel it. Well, 
Fawn: no. No. No. We want authenticity. I 
MATT: know. [00:28:00] 
Fawn: No. Speak your truth. Like, hey, I will not pick you up from the airport or take you to the airport, okay? I can't. I won't. Unless I do some major prayer work or, like, I have to, like, psych myself up, which could take a few days.
Like, there's certain things that we can't do, that goes against us. We have to be authentic and truthful about those things. True. Those things, you know? Like, maybe I have all kinds of cuts on my finger, and I can't cut. 
MATT: And there you go. So if somebody asks you to peel an orange, do something nice for them.
Fawn: Maybe I can use a knife, though, and do it. You know? But, I'm just saying, tests are weird. It's not black and white. It's not. It's just, you have to, I don't know, you just have to be sensitive to common sense. Yes. But, yeah, take that orange peel, turn it into a marmalade, or turn it into What do you call those things I'm [00:29:00] making?
They're beautiful. Candied orange peels. Candied orange peels, everybody. Oh my goodness. All right. If you want the recipe, email me. All right. We'll talk to you in just a few days. Thank you so much for listening. We love you. Thank you for joining our friendly world. Be well.