Why You Feel Lonely Even When You’re Doing Everything Right: Friendship, Class, and the Rise of Micro-Community

Transcript
FAWN: [00:00:00] here's what was told to me that often the people who speak most clearly about water are the ones walking through drought.
 there is a particular loneliness
I feel very, alone and without community. I have friends, they're scattered around the planet, but there's no one in this town. We see each other maybe twice a year,
today we talk about how micro community quietly exists, even when it feels like you have none. So tune in.
Here we go.
Welcome back to our Friendly World, everybody. Hello 
MATT: everybody. 
FAWN: Hi. Friendly World. Did I say that right? 
MATT: Yes. 
FAWN: Welcome back. So, uh, this all started when, again, I was feeling like, uh, what am I even doing talking about friendship?
Because look at me. I've become very reclusive. My work requires me to be inside in a padded room, which sounds crazy, but that's [00:01:00] my line of work. I'm a voice actor, right? And the thing is, I don't wanna go out. I have to push myself to go out. And here I am talking about friendship.
And I do, like I said, I do have friends and we have great conversations. You know, there's a support group. Yes. But, um. The ideal that I have been preaching about for the last few decades is not here. In the end. I'm trying to create that, and at the same time, I do feel disillusioned. I do feel like I don't even wanna do it.
You know, like, I don't wanna see crazy Kathy outside our house, you know, I don't wanna deal with her craziness. Right. I don't wanna deal with her form of, whatever she wants to throw at me, you know what I'm saying? And dragon's 
MATT: on the left of me, dragon's on the right of me. So, 
FAWN: exactly. So, and because I don't wanna get into conflict and all of that, I'm like, you know what, I'm good.
I, I'd rather just stay inside. I'm good. [00:02:00] But, that's the inertia we all have to get over because , that's not really the world. And the world does is crazy. It is in upheaval. Things are changing. This is what I've been thinking about a lot lately, and I don't know if it's birthdays.
It's, it is all about birthdays and stuff. It makes you think, oh my God, I have worked very carefully about being very mindful of every minute of the day, being mindful of everything the kids are going through, being present, completely present. I'm not one of those people that's constantly rushing from here to there doing this and that.
I'm, I am doing a lot, but we as parents have always been very still with our kids and with our lives and very deliberate in what we choose to do and how we choose to do everything when you do that, it's quite meditative and you do [00:03:00] bend time to your will. I guess, I don't know of a better word for it right now, but time does slow down when you do that.
But it hasn't, I feel, and I was talking to a friend who actually called me this morning and the phone happened to be near me because I did wake up, but I was kind of still like in bed, like, didn't wanna get out because it's freezing outside and whatever. It's, it's, it's my birthday and I just, I was just like, I just wanna be here.
I'm, I don't wanna, I don't wanna like get up and start running around, you know what I'm saying? Right. I just wanna be thankful and just lay here for a second. I picked up the phone. I'm like, I thought I'm, I, I thought I butt dialed her, right? I couldn't believe she was calling. I'm like, it's a little early, isn't it?
And it was early for her especially. 'cause she was in a completely different time zone. And I'm like, what are you doing up? Like, [00:04:00] she's like, where are you sleeping? I'm like, no.
And I could hear my own voice like that morning voice, like, it's not quite there yet. I'm like, no, I just, uh, um,
so we were talking for a little bit. And I was explaining how time feels so fluid, and it's kind of like those movies where they time travel and they poke their fingers through a portal and it's like a ripple, like, uh, time is very malleable. It seems like through like, like a ripple. If, if you touch it.
Like I just feel like all the dimensions are existing at the same time and, if there's a curtain to distinguish this dimension from that dimension, I think it's all coming together and it's all pliable. I don't know any other word for it. It's not just us. 'cause [00:05:00] she was like, oh, well that's what happens when you get older.
Time goes by faster. Oh. I'm like, no, little kids are saying this and I'm telling this to people who are, are old and they're like, oh, that's what happens when you get older. That's like the, that's the go-to for them. I'm like, no, you don't understand. It's not just you that's feeling this way. It's not the typical, oh, time goes by faster when you're having fun or time goes faster when you're older.
No little kids are saying this, that you wake up, it's Monday, a few hours later, it's Friday. Like time is going by really fast. And in some cases it goes slow. It's, it's just like a, it's warped it, it's all of it at the same time, at different times, if that makes any sense. So anyway, because there's so much going on and I was thinking about
what my actions have been like. I have been in such a state of fear or, trauma, getting over trauma that [00:06:00] I'm self-soothing. I'm eating when I'm not hungry. I was watching Stranger Things with our kids, and I started stuffing my face because it was stressing me out, you know?
And then my heart started racing. So then I had to take some extra herbs to calm down and they're like, mom, can we, you wanna just turn it off? I'm like, no, you know, but this might welcome to my all day, every day, dear Oh dear. Like, I just have to deal with it. So like, even getting a cup of coffee. I don't want coffee.
I don't need coffee. I'm turning to the coffee to have in my hand something warm that I can hold onto because i'm stressed out. I need some reassurance. I need something to hold onto. I need a touchstone for comfort. I need something to hold me. You know what I'm saying? I do. So I'm like, okay, I gotta get rid of these things.
I don't need it. I am, [00:07:00] we are unlimited, we are unlimited. We don't need these external things. We don't need to go shopping. We don't need to eat as much as we're eating. We don't need that coffee. We don't. What you do need is to ground yourself anchor yourself within your yourself, because you are from the divine.
You are, you have the spark, you have the fire of the divine in you, and that holds unlimited power and you're unlimited. So if we can remember. To turn to that first and then go ahead and have a cup of coffee because it tastes good, you know, a little bit. 
MATT: I, I agree. For me, I have to have wins. I love wins
Everybody loves wins, right? Wins have to be internal for me because I can't give my, I, sorry. Not that I can't, I don't want to give my power [00:08:00] away. I don't want to give away. You are the only person who has the ability to make me feel good. No, I don't wanna do that. Although in a lot of cases you are the only one who makes me feel good, baby.
But, um, for me, a win makes me feel a little more comfortable and, and that is typically an accomplishment, which is why, of course, I have my wacky morning rituals. Where I, I actually managed to get a couple things accomplished, knock on wood, that are basically almost entirely just tied to me. Doing the laundry.
That's an accomplishment I do. Which isn't completely under my control 'cause the washing machine can break, but it's basically under my control. And I'll work out in the mornings now every morning. And that is completely under my control. 
FAWN: Thank you. I know, but no, and no buts and yes.
And
I do wanna acknowledge something though, [00:09:00] that there is a particular loneliness that comes from being socially attuned but structurally unsupported. Right? What does, but what does that mean? I was 
MATT: about to say, yeah. What does that mean? 
FAWN: It is harder for me. I'll just speak for myself, but this is what I've noticed about our society that
let's just, let me just go back just to talk about friendship and hopefully this will be an example. Um, but you are not isolated because you don't value friendship. You're isolated because modern systems make sustained belonging incredibly hard unless you're buffered by money status or institutional power.
Meaning when you feel like there's no community, there's no structure to turn to, right. Let's say you need help to raise your kid. You need help someone needs to watch your kid while you're giving birth to the other kid. Like there's nobody, which was what we had. Right? 
me: Right.[00:10:00] 
FAWN: Nobody. Then when there is somebody, they're strangers, so it doesn't feel safe. So there's no structure. You're structurally unsupported. That's what I'm saying, like when you have a community like that, you have, like in other cultures, you know, they call each other, aunts and uncle when they're not like any other person, like a woman you meet is auntie.
Mm-hmm. Or a man you meet is uncle within the community you are not necessarily blood related. But there's none of that. There's been none of that that we have experienced. Uh, 
MATT: and that is the, that's the fair statement. So, 'cause I, I think that there, there is that we just haven't been fortunate enough to really stumble frankly upon it.
FAWN: So, um, Matt and I always talk about a documentary we saw in, the early two thousands. I know a lot of you have not. Weren't even born then, maybe. Okay. So here's what [00:11:00] happened. One day I fell asleep watching tv, and then I woke up to this documentary that HA was on that happened to be playing, and I woke up with such awe, I'm like, oh my goodness.
Everything that I've been thinking about while I've been photographing all these years, here it is, someone did a documentary, but not on what I was thinking about. Similar, similar as in really looking at our society and thinking about, and talking about, and showing examples of this cast system, especially in the United States.
A cast system. I've photographed and, experienced different levels of social structures. Mm-hmm. You know, people don't talk to you if you're over here, if, if you're in this class system or they don't wanna be associated with you if you're here, they look down on you, they, they talk down on you.[00:12:00] 
You know, you already know the deal. I don't have to explain all this to you guys, but, so I was thinking about, I always think about this documentary, it was called People Like Us. Now It's not the movie. A movie came out. I think a couple movies have come out in the last, I don't know, 26 years. That's like with the title.
Definitely. Definitely a documentary. This is a documentary that was done in 2000, and I don't remember the guy's names, I'm sorry, but I did reach out to them, by the way. When I saw it. I was so excited. They thought I was a little nuts. Probably like, who are you lady? Well, in hindsight, yes. 
MATT: I think we absolutely were nuts.
FAWN: I was You didn't talk. I called them. Yeah. 
MATT: But I was as interested as you were. Mm. 
FAWN: I basically tracked these guys down to say, thank you. You did such a great job. This is amazing. Our culture needs this. Like this is what [00:13:00] everyone needs to look at. But guess what? I don't think many people saw it. No. And it was such a good warning.
It was so important for people to see this because they would've seen and be been able to do something. And I was telling the kids, because what we did finally, after all these years, we decided, you know what? Let's have the kids now watch this. And then we watched it and 
MATT: it was a very different documentary than I remember.
Oh my 
FAWN: God. Yes. Because 26 years have gone by. Well, actually no, we saw it in 2004. We saw it in 2004. So whatever, 22 years. 
MATT: And I am definitely not the same person. 
FAWN: I mean, we became parents. We, yeah, we've, we've experienced major hardships. We've seen things. We've lived in different parts of the country.
We've 
MATT: seen things, we've 
FAWN: seen some stuff. So, so, um, yeah, I was [00:14:00] watching it and I had kind of the same reactions I did initially, but I was really upset with certain parts of it where I was shouting at the TV screen, like, and telling the kids, don't you ever act like that? Like, like I, I, I, like, I came at it from the perspective of a mother, um, a mother who.
Brings about home training. Like I always say to the kids, this person right here has no home training. This is why they behave that way. And guess what? It's one of their close friends, right? I'm like, there's no home training here. I do not appreciate how they're behaving and don't think that that's normal.
So I always have to like say stuff like that to the kids. Mm-hmm. Anyway, so looking back on this, I started to ask myself what has happened with the, class system in the [00:15:00] United States since 2000? Because these warnings were not heated. Heed as in like, they weren't listened to, they weren't observed.
Yeah. So, and I was telling the kids, when you don't pay attention and you don't look at the signs, guess what? It will be done for you. And I always say this, when you're in a job and you know you have to leave, you have to quit, but you're too scared because yes, you have to pay the rent. Yes, yes, yes. But every, everything is telling you you need to get out of here and you don't guess what?
You will be forced out in some way. And it, it can be harsh, you know, if you want things less harsh, follow your instincts, follow your, intellect, combine them and make. Make changes that way. So our, I don't think our society did that. And so after certain huge hurricanes and after [00:16:00] maladies that afflicted people's health and, um, downfalls of companies like Enron, remember?
Mm-hmm. This documentary was before Enron, like all of this changed things and brought things to the forefront of everything that was, um, just accepted, not talked about. Well, 
MATT: and also I think we're also looking at, uh, much more, uh, much more, it was already in the process of happening, but more, uh, what's the word?
Homogeneity of culture. 
FAWN: Mm-hmm. Like everything was acceptable. Like this is the way it is, right? Yeah. There was no, uh. No pushing back against the status quo necessarily, 
MATT: but the, and even the status quo was subtly shifting in, in, in challenging ways. Like the politician who said, yeah, I didn't pay a lot in taxes because I'm smart.
Mm-hmm. Not, because, you know, I do pay a lot in taxes. It's just less of a percentage, [00:17:00] not, you know, I, I'm doing my bit for the government. No, I'm, I'm keeping my money because I'm smart with an inference that everyone else may be is stupid. 
FAWN: But speaking of said politician, I mean that's why he has become so popular and is leading is because there was a, a certain class that was constantly ignored.
So in the documentary, for example, they talk about food, and bread. Who eats what kind of bread? And that'll show you what class system that you have fallen into, right? What, what, what your class? Wonder Bread as opposed to like dark, 
MATT: organic, crusty, 
FAWN: crusty, like dark bread. Like what? What's a dark bread?
Like those European dark breads. 
MATT: Like a brown bread, like a pumper nickel. Like a, 
FAWN: no, it's something else. Anyway, they're really brown and you know, they're not, 
MATT: are you thinking batard and, 
FAWN: I don't know. Those are like in [00:18:00] between. They're still white, but you know, like it's all, these are, clues. 
MATT: I guess they're, they're indefinite indicators.
And so food, food is a big indicator of class 
FAWN: They went to this one town, the documentary, and the fight was the big grocery store. 
MATT: A big grocery store had packed up and left and they, they wanted to fill that space with another grocery store, and they wanted the people to vote.
You know, who do you want to fill the space? 
FAWN: And so the people that were health conscious and the middle class, they were like, let's bring in a co-op. When you're watching this, you can see aspects of yourself. So for me, I used to live in Seattle and I belong to a co-op.
And what it is, is it's a grocery store. It's all health food. It's mostly all fresh vegetables and fruit, you know, everything is, uh, owned by the pe the cus the customer. So you own a percentage of the grocery store and you vote [00:19:00] and it's like a co-share, Anyway, so that was trying to come in and the people were so upset. And when I was first watching this 20 something years ago mm-hmm. I was like, oh my God, look at them. They're so upset. They don't understand 
MATT: the food will be so much healthier and better for them. Yeah.
FAWN: Because obviously they're, I can see they're dealing with health challenges. Right. But then what the documentary was pointing out was these people were the ones that have always been marginalized, made fun of, not included. And the same people who did that to them, who mistreated them, are the ones now who are like saying, we're gonna bring in this grocery store.
This is what we're going to eat. 
MATT: And that's because the last time, really, if you think about it. The last time you may be mixed with the different classes was when you were in a public high school. 
FAWN: Right? Yeah. And that's what they said. That was the last time. That's exactly what they said. Time had to deal with this.
Right. Right. And then, so this is being [00:20:00] forced, forced on them, feeling like they have no say. Anyway, it, it's really a huge, uh, issue if we can talk for hours and hours about it. And that's not where I necessarily wanna focus today because I wanna bring it back to friendship and how we relate to one another and just the whole feeling of loneliness and being separated from and falling in the cracks of things.
Like, you don't fall into this class or this class. You're in the cracks. Not fitting into anything. 
MATT: Right. But I wanna briefly just go back to that and say, I think the big issue there was they were again, seeing the popular kids, the smart kids, the athletes, the whatevers, trying to tell them what to do.
And that was the problem. They weren't being listened to. 
FAWN: Mm-hmm. 
MATT: They weren't being empathized with, they weren't, they were being told they 
FAWN: weren't. Yeah. They weren't asked, well, what do you like to [00:21:00] eat? What would you like to eat? No, they weren't, they, they justt assumed. Yeah. 
MATT: That they wanted white bread and they wanted meat.
And so they were like, we can bring in 99 cent bread. And they, so they ran to solutioning before they actually heard the people tell them what the real problems were. 
FAWN: And we all know, assume makes an a SS out of you and me, 
MATT: and rushing to solutioning is a problem too. 
FAWN: Big one. So going back to the le, like, I wanted to, I want to talk about what's changed here.
Mm-hmm. Because in the early two thousands, there were clearer cultural signals, more local identity. Slightly more mobility myths that people still believed in. And since then the class system hasn't, because I, I was wondering, has it disappeared or how has it been muted or something's different?
Someone said it has hardened and gone [00:22:00] underground and then I would 
MATT: argue it's hardened and become just the way things are. And it feels like there's a lot less mobility. 
FAWN: I, I think underground is perfect because like, let's say the rich, they showed the rich people in this documentary.
And you seriously, I mean I, first of all, now that I'm older and I'm looking at it, I'm like, oh, this documentary was done by these guys who are obviously angry with the rich people. 
MATT: Eat the rich. 
FAWN: They were angry. I know, I, I didn't notice that the first time I, I watched it. Oh, I 
MATT: totally did. 
FAWN: You did? I did. I didn't at all.
I'm like, oh, this guy has rage, like he was at Sur la Table holding a, a vegetable peeler. He's like, what even is this? You know? I'm like, dude, it's a vegetable peeler. But back in the day when I first watched it, I'm like, I didn't look to see what he was holding. I was just listening to what he was saying.
Mm-hmm. Which is, oh, if you have this, this lets you know that you're better than somebody else. 'cause you [00:23:00] know how to use this and put it in this backpack to use with your, you know, white truffle sauce or whatever it is, you know, like, which I'm translating. 'cause he, there was an Italian word for it and he was like, who even knows what this is?
I'm like, hello. It's Italian. Learn to speak other languages, but alone, I guess that is, nevermind now I'm showing my butt. Anyway.
Do you know what I'm saying though? Like, so the rich looked a certain way. One, because these guys hated the rich. So they, they didn't make them look good. In the 1990s, people, Americans flaunt everything, flaunted, the big cars flaunt, the, the jewelry flaunted, their clothes, the designer, this and that.
Big flaunt And in some cases, I think in LA it's still like that. But I mean, not in places we've lived. 
MATT: There is a certain subtlety to it. I have to, I have to. That's I'm saying 
FAWN: it's not flaunted anymore. It's [00:24:00] hidden. And I think it's to preserve yourself maybe so you don't get beaten up or, you know, no one attacks you.
MATT: Well, we all know Taylor Swift made a billion dollars on her last tour. But on some level we're like, well, yeah, maybe, maybe she deserves it. Maybe she's, you know, she's earned it. 
me: Mm-hmm. 
MATT: A billion dollars. It's a lot of money. I mean, 
FAWN: but then you hear about how she gave so much money to everyone that works for her.
Right. You know what I'm saying? Right. Exactly. And they all that is publicity as well because they're like making it very clear like, Hey, I'm not a bad guy here I am spreading the wealth. You know? Right. What I'm saying? It's very strategic, it's very tactical, but we don dunno what's 
MATT: expense, what's not expensed, what, what the corporation that is Taylor Swift even looks like.
But 
FAWN: again, it's muted. Do you know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. It is not like flaunting it. They're controlling the narrative. Yes, yes. So, okay, so early two thousands class was more openly named regional accents too. Like we were talking about this this morning, [00:25:00] like the very rich people in the nineties, like they had this weird accent no matter what coast you were on, they had a weird.
That kind of separated them from other classes, you know? Right. Like, if you look at, I mean, this would be East Coast, but like, if you look at the movie, trading Places, and people's names like Buffy, you know, or I, I'm, I'm, I'm blanking out now, and there's a 
MATT: little bit of a caricature, but I think it's fairly accurate.
FAWN: But I went to Harvard, you know, it's like an English accent, but not an English accent. Like, what is that? It's that upper crusty accent that doesn't exist anymore. That went away. Anyway, so a regional accents, jobs, neighborhoods, they told clear stories back then. Yes. It's muted now. Yes.
People expected inequality. Like that was it, it was just the norm. It's unequal. Oh, well, you know what I'm saying? Now it's like. [00:26:00] Even if they didn't like it, it was, it was normal. But now it's like everything has to be equal, it feels like, 
MATT: and, and, and. And if it's 
FAWN: not, then they start complaining and playing victim.
MATT: I think by and large everything is sanitized, especially for the very wealthy, through messaging, through careful curation. You know, things like, who knows, aside from crazy people like me, Zuckerberg owns like I think he practically owns an island in Hawaii, but he owns hundreds of acres building a bunker, come up with a million different things to say about it.
And he also is in the process of the house he has in Palo Alto, he has offers out for everybody surrounding his house that if they wanna sell it, he'll buy it for like double the price or triple the price. He doesn't care, frankly, right? Mm-hmm. Uh, if they wanna sell or when they choose to sell. Mm-hmm. So they, it's just money in the bank and he can build whatever estate that he's, you know, theoretically planning at this point.
But it all sounds so [00:27:00] reasonable. And it what? It comes out slow. Well, I'm three, I'm hitting you with both of those things. Bam. Um, three things, bam, bam, bam. But it, there was time in between each news story. 
FAWN: Oh. Because we're all so inundated with so many things coming at us that the absurd is now normal.
MATT: Well, the absurd is is quickly replaced with another, another absurdity. Another absurdity. Yeah. And we let it go. 
FAWN: Absolutely. It feels like everyone is expected to perform middle class normalcy. Like everybody is middle class outwardly. Yes. Like these billionaires are middle class because they, they choose to dress like they're urban.
Well, Zuckerberg drives, drives an 
MATT: Acura, don't, you know, 
FAWN: , They go around wearing hoodies anyway. So debt, hustle and exhaustion hide precarity. 
MATT: Precarity. 
FAWN: Someone said this to me. Debt, debt, hustle and exhaustion hide, precarity.
When you're in debt, when you're constantly hustling, when you're tired, all of [00:28:00] that is happening and you don't see the precariousness that's happening. Oh, okay. Yes. Is is how I'm, I'm choosing to understand what that means. You're, 
MATT: you're, you're up on the high wire and you need to focus on being on the high wire, 
FAWN: and then of course, social media, we have to bring that into it, into the mix because it flattens appearances while widening reality.
MATT: Well, they're like kids with unboxing channels, right? Mm-hmm. These kids aren't buying these multi-thousand dollar toys that they're unwrapping and checking out. It's the parents. It's, yeah, but at some point it beco, it can become a self-perpetuating system and people feel that's, people felt, I think at one point that was accessible.
I have no idea how people feel today 'cause, well, I stay away from most social media, but it was like, this is not the kids' channel. This is the parents' channel. Who are the parents? We don't know. 
FAWN: Right. And 
MATT: it's again, the same way. 
FAWN: Right? It makes it look like the kids were filming this. And so like you forget, hey, someone's filming this in a [00:29:00] very professional way by the way.
And look at that too, with wars. Who's filming it? Who is in there? I had a friend when I was studying photography. And she looked so innocent. I told you guys about her a long time ago, but she looked so innocent. She was so petite, and she's so demure. And then one day, you know, we always would do projects.
We wouldn't tell the class what the project was, and then we would show up on a Thursday and put up all of our prints that we worked on, you know? Mm-hmm. Pictures we took. So one Thursday she puts up her prints and so we all come into the room. We couldn't tell like who put what up, you know? And we were looking at these prints we're like, oh my God, who photographed these?
They were like really intimate behind the doors, like shut away from [00:30:00] society, like secret kind of photographs of what happens in a strip club, like behind the scenes. Wow. Behind the scenes, like in the dressing rooms and stuff, right? Mm-hmm. Of these strippers. And guess what? Our, my friend, the innocent looking, very petite, very demure housewife, those were her pictures.
I'm like, how did you get these pictures? How did you get into that world? She's like, I'm a stripper. 
MATT: Well, okay, rock on.
FAWN: Wow, okay. You know, you wouldn't have known. But anyway, I totally digress. Why am I talking about this 
MATT: stealth, stealth in class and, and just this, this flattening of, I mean, you, it's, it's harder to look, listen, touch, taste, feel someone, and figure out what class they're in. 
me: Mm. 
MATT: And everybody is trying to act just like us, so people [00:31:00] like us, people, you know, and that's an impossibility.
FAWN: And I feel like all of this that we just talked about creates shame instead of solidarity. With my friend, I felt solidarity. I'm like, thank you for letting me into your world. You know? But like if she hadn't, does she feel shame? Because she had to hide that. Like she had this other completely different facade in, in a completely different life over here during the day.
Mm-hmm. Do you know what I'm saying? Right. Like with a minivan and the kids and everything. And yet, wow. If you could see the pictures. Holy moly. Anyway, so then another thing is community used to be local. Now it's fragmented. So we grew up watching community erode in real time. Churches, unions, neighborhoods, and long-term friendships.
They, I feel like they weakened even more like weakened, [00:32:00] got weak people, became mobile, precarious and isolated. Well, yeah, 
MATT: I, I can just take a look. You know, I don't need to even connect with someone if I can find them on Facebook, LinkedIn. Oh, Instagram. So many 
FAWN: of my friends are like, oh, I haven't talked to you in months.
But it's okay. 'cause I listen to the podcast. And I laugh. I'm like, you do realize I'm not, that's not my life. Like, it's not all of my, I'm making commentary about our society. You are. You don't know anything about my day-to-day life. 
MATT: Well, to be fair, we do sometimes talk about things that just happened. Of course.
But of course, because 
FAWN: we're giving real life examples, we have to, you know, we're authentic. Here we are, but they don't know. But it's not 
MATT: totality and it's, it's not. But of course, and I wanna know how you're doing. Come on. 
FAWN: Oh my gosh. So anyway, so belonging bec became transactional. It's all about networking, branding, you know, are you relevant?[00:33:00] 
Ugh, I'm gonna throw up. Well, 
MATT: yeah, we're supposed to network and build connections, so, um, you know, if something weird happens or, yeah, and, and honestly, it kind of became a competition, right? Like LinkedIn, I remember when I first joined LinkedIn, everybody had 500 plus people. And I was like, Ooh, I wanna get to 500.
Then I stop myself and I'm like, what are you doing? Because you're just gonna dilute your value. 
FAWN: So here's the thing, I don't really have community. And I was so, I was, I still am feeling so sad and alone and, and then hypocritical because here I am with a podcast that is all about making friends, true friends, that last, and creating community.
But here I am in padded walls, like a crazy person talking to myself all day. But 
MATT: it's, it's almost flattering now because it require, it feels like it requires so much more [00:34:00] effort to connect with people now 
FAWN: It does.
To, 
MATT: to really burst through that quote unquote noise. Like of, updates, status updates and, crazy news cycles and everything else. It really takes a lot to be able to sit and be still, and, and this is, yeah, just talk 
FAWN: and this is our solution. Talking about it and, and bringing it to mind so that if you are also feeling like you don't have community and you don't have support, by
telling you our experience or my experience that hey, I don't have it and I'm talking about it. This is why I am talking about it. Just remember, if you are also feeling this way, that you have no community, although I don't have a cure that is to be implemented this very second. I do have a cure, but I don't have it to be done at this second 'cause I need mass consciousness to keep up with us.
I want you to [00:35:00] remember that it's not a personal failure, it's a structural outcome. And I'm not, I'm not playing like woe is me. I'm not being, um, I don't want us to become like the victim mentality people. You know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. No, but just know this is what it is. It is what it is. This is how things are set up right now.
And remember that. So you don't feel beaten down because you don't have community. Just the mere fact that you are thinking about it and you desire it is creating community. 
MATT: Right. And also, also, and it will happen. And also you have to like not focus, I think, so much on appearances or any of the rest of it and just go for it.
Uh, literally I remember, oh, nevermind. Um, but uh, I was hanging out with our youngest and a woman walked in and I could just [00:36:00] tell old older woman and I could just tell she was, she was walking her path and she just, she didn't care. Not in an angry way, but just in a, huh. Here, here I am, I'm walking my path. 
me: Mm-hmm.
MATT: And that's kind of the mentality. Like it felt like if I would've gone up to her and I would've talked to her about anything, we probably would've had an interesting conversation. 
me: Mm-hmm. 
MATT: It's just breaking through that, through that inertia. And I, I think if I had, you know, if she had wanted to, she would've, you know what I mean?
It was that kind of mentality. Yeah. Which is something that I'm now more striving to do. I'm, I'm in the process of building something from an, uh, a raw acquaintanceship at work to something, maybe something more. Who's to say? 
FAWN: I think that is a combination of being soft and tough at the same time. Exactly.
You know, no one, you're not a pushover, you're not a victim. You are also open and compassionate. Right. But you're not gonna be manipulated. 
MATT: But it's, it's, it's the same, it's almost the same mindset that would have you go up and [00:37:00] talk to that cute girl at the bar 
FAWN: or cute guy, Hey, who so, so you know, all this.
And then I go back to the class system and I was thinking, Hmm, all those people that were screaming about, don't tell me what I can buy at this co-op. I'm gonna go, even if I have to travel for miles and miles, I'm gonna go to the big store where I can buy the 99 cents loaf of Wonder Bread. Like, don't tell me what to do.
Right. I feel like there's been a revolution of these people that feel unseen, all of us who feel unseen. It's been like a, an explosion of like, hear me now here, you know, you have no choice but to see me now. And I feel like every, um, a lot of different, groups and a lot of different casts within our culture, within our society [00:38:00] in America mm-hmm.
Has had that moment, like, has something happened to bring to the forefront? Without people being able to look away, to see how badly the situation is, whether it's a hurricane Katrina. Whether it's .Communities that are constantly mistreated, to people that you think have money but are on food stamps and struggling to people you think that have all of that, their stuff together and running the country or running big businesses, but they don't know what they're doing.
MATT: Well, they're making out of, its that they go for sure. 
FAWN: This is a delicate subject, but like, I don't think I'm wrong, and, and I think that that's how Trump became so popular. Because for him it was, it wasn't necessarily just voting for him, but it [00:39:00] was voting against invisibility.
Of course. I mean, everyone talks about this now. This is not news in, 
MATT: in a much more severe way than it was showing George Bush buying socks at Walmart. Mm-hmm. That feels quaint. Now 
FAWN: for those of you in other countries, uh, the president, that was the, the candidate that was running for president back then was, uh, Bush Senior, right?
Was it senior or junior? No, I think it was junior. It was Junior who owns 
MATT: the Texas Rangers, which is a professional base, wealthy team, was 
FAWN: very wealthy, wealthy family, very wealthy. But they showed him going to Walmart, which is where like the um, which is our like blue collar place to shop for daily life.
Food, socks, uh, everything. Right? Right. Walmart. And so he, he, he was being shown that he went to buy a pair of socks for himself. Like that's where he shops. And that was a way to manipulate people to think, oh, he is like us. He's one of us. 
MATT: Whereas he probably has a personal shopper. He [00:40:00] would say, please, it was to wherever it a he was gonna send it, send them to.
FAWN: So working and lower middle class people, I feel like we're told, Hey, if you're struggling, it's your fault. Um, that pain was psychologized instead of addressed. That cultural elites spoke about, about them, not with them. And, and, and you disagree with me here. Right. And that's just 
MATT: it. Yes. I, I would, would say that, uh, it, it's, it's almost more p it's almost more powerful.
'cause they, well, you saying that they weren't, they weren't told if you're struggling at your fault, they felt it in their heart. No, honey, I disagree. They felt it. 
FAWN: Of course they thought that, no, no, no. It's 
MATT: easy for me to say, well, you're wrong f you if you're, if somebody's coming at you and telling you something, even if it's a tv, I can turn it off, but as soon as it gets internalized, as soon as I, yeah, feel it.
FAWN: And here's the problem, through a million 
MATT: subliminal and, and yeah, sublingual [00:41:00] messaging. 
FAWN: A hundred percent agree with what you're saying, Matt. However, that's exactly what happened. They were, we were, we were being told that you are inferior, that it's your fault because you haven't gotten properly educated.
You haven't gone to this university you should have gone to, and you're not gonna amount to anything. And guess who told us that? It was Oprah. I remember watching Oprah and that's the message I kept hearing from her- be college educated. Otherwise you'll never succeed. You'll never, never, never, never.
And I grew older and I was trying to support myself through college and everything. I couldn't afford to stay in college. You know, I was studying on my own. I was like busting my butt trying to succeed and learn and do everything. And here's this woman telling all these middle class women this message.
And yeah, because they respected her and everybody loved her. It was [00:42:00] emotional. It became in internalized, 
MATT: it became internalized. And now it weaponized even. And now I don't know what's gonna happen because, you know, they're seeing, uh, going to university was the, was the secret. You can earn this much more money over your lifetime.
You 
FAWN: can rise above your class. They. 
MATT: They're not seeing that right 
FAWN: now. And, and, and that's the thing, universities, it's because things are changing so much. There's no way someone has the answers that they can teach you. You only learn by a doing. And you know, I, I've known so many people who, who barely graduated high school, that became so successful and supported their families.
They were amazing business people. And sometimes it's, it's, and I, and I'm one of those people who, who's co I'm sorry to interrupt you Matt, but I'm constantly looking at YouTubes to, uh, look at interviews with billionaires and business owners that are really successful financially. And they all say, I will not have my kids going to university.[00:43:00] 
My kids did not go to university. I am against that because it's a waste of money and it's a waste of time. That's now the new narrative. 
MATT: And I can argue that on both sides. Both sides, I can argue that they're wrong and I can argue they're absolutely right. Mm-hmm. So it's all contingent, but I, I will say hustle, hustle, hustle can win.
But you know, we're getting away from, we're talking about almost like the breakdown of society as opposed to, or the breakdown of the class system as opposed to, you know, friendship. 
FAWN: I mean, if you, I mean, that's part of friendship because here you are now stuck in the middle of all this trying to survive.
Who has time for friendship? Who has the capacity to be compassionate, to be like grounded and like, ah, let me listen to you. Hi. How you doing today? No, you are in fight or flight mode. And, and I think [00:44:00] this is what's helped to contribute to loneliness. Yes. And contribute to feeling like you can't even talk to someone.
MATT: I'll absolutely agree with that. However,
we, it feels like we should, and this is where it all gets precarious, right. But it feels like we should be able to listen, not solution, but listen and let people talk. Just let people talk. 
FAWN: And I've noticed if I let people talk, I don't have to talk because they're feeling like what I'm feeling. So in listening to them, I'm like, oh, he did my work for me.
And I can say same, 
MATT: but sometimes you just have to get something out. I've noticed this for years. Every once in a while, somebody will have a conversation with me where they just needed a warm body in the room. And sometimes, and [00:45:00] fortunately it doesn't happen very often, but it does happen. I need a warm body in the room and somebody's just gonna listen to whatever it is I have to say, smile and nod, and we'll both move on.
And they'll be like, okay, Matt's a little more crazy than I thought. And that's fine, because again, you know, it's the, it's the thick skin, compassionate. 
FAWN: So can we go back to living in the cracks? I feel like because things have been been so fragmented, there are so many cracks now we're all in the cracks.
And you can't, it's hard to like come up and go, Hey, you know what I'm saying? You're in a crack. Mm-hmm. So it feels like, doesn't it feel like when you're in the crack that. You, you can see multiple worlds you're straddling different cultures, different situations, right? Yes. So you can see multiple situations, multiple worlds. Mm-hmm. And yet you don't fully belong to any single one. As far as like connecting with [00:46:00] one another and then the ones that notice that they're in the cracks and everything and, and feel this or brave enough to say, you know what, I don't have a lot of friends, I don't have community like brave enough to admit it because usually like people feel like it's their fault and so they feel shame 
MATT: and, and as a victim that 
FAWN: they don't have either that or they just feel like.
Something's wrong with me. I, I caused it victim. It's my fault. No, it's my fault. I know victim. Victim is victim. No, victim is, you did this to me. That's how I see it. I 
MATT: see a victim as something was done to me. 
FAWN: Right. That's a victim. I'm saying I, I did this to myself because I don't fit in. You know what I mean?
I, I didn't study hard enough. Point, point, I didn't work hard enough. Point I, I didn't go out, um, the way I should have, or I didn't pursue this or that. So, but oftentimes these people that are sensitive to that and, and see that and acknowledge that in, in [00:47:00] themselves, within themselves, those are the translators, the artists, the listeners, the podcasters.
And I was told the bridges, and here's what my friend said to me. 'cause he said, you are, you are a bridge. You know, you may feel like you don't have community, but like with your, you're. Everything that you're doing, you're writing all of that, you're a bridge. And he said, guess what? Bridges get walked on.
And translators are rarely thanked and listeners are rarely held. That's the hidden cost of your kind of sensitivity. That's true. 
MATT: And again, it, it feels like, it feels like what you're saying is give people the space to talk. Just, just listen. Right. Because unfortunately, fortunately, or unfortunately, everybody wants to be right.
Everybody wants to be, you know, [00:48:00] smarter and better because it makes us feel good is maybe a stretch, but it makes us feel less bad. To be that person who is, who is right, who is smart, who is strong, who knows something, and sometimes just communicating. We call it in programming, we call it rubber ducking.
Mm-hmm. We, we want a rubber duck in the room. We wanna explain what we've done to the rubber duck. 'cause maybe we can figure out what the problem is and then we can fix it. But I don't want you to talk, I just want you going, going. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I understand. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Weird world. Ooh, I could tell a story outta school.
Are you ready for me to tell you a story outta school in college? 
FAWN: Make a quick though, babe. This has been a long episode 
MATT: in college. Met a girl. Things got interesting. Sorry, baby. Sorry baby. She had something she wanted to say and I was like, okay. And she, she was like, I don't know if I can say it to you.
And I'm was like, really? So now I'm [00:49:00] intrigued. And I, and then I was like, she was studying Italian. And she could speak Italian. I was like, well, go ahead and tell it to me in Italian and I will just listen and I will be attentive and I will nod and I will have no idea what you were saying. And so she did.
And I, to this day, no idea. It's not like I could pick out, you know, any word in there. Not even, no. Which is, and she probably cut it up, so I couldn't figure that out. But who's to say 
FAWN: and why did she do that? 
MATT: Something important. She just had to, had to enter into the room. 
me: Mm. 
MATT: You know? Yeah. And honestly, the whole thing fizzled out shortly thereafter.
And I got the feeling there was other forces at work, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, but whatever. It's not important. This was so many years ago. It's not even funny. It was just a weird moment in time. But at that's when I understood, that's when I started to understand, I think the value of just having someone in the room listening.
FAWN: Yeah. 
MATT: Regardless of what you're [00:50:00] saying, regardless of them not even understanding what you're saying is valuable. 
FAWN: So can we talk about why all this hurts so much?
and, and our work here with this podcast, we're not just talking about friendship, you know, we, we actually believe in it as a force for repair, repairing our society, repairing our relationships, repairing even our economy. We talked about this in the very beginning when I, got a grant to do, this friendship movement.
Um, part of what I was saying is it directly impacts our economy. And I, I made a case of why and how we can fix it. So realizing I don't have the safety net that I advocate for, and the feeling that I have is betrayal, exposure, and quiet what did I do wrong? Mm-hmm. How come I don't have friends? Like I don't have a bad [00:51:00] personality, I'm compassionate, whatever, you know?
Like, what did I do wrong? And if you are feeling like me. The answer is a gentle nothing. You didn't do anything wrong. We're responding sanely to an unsane structure at the moment. It is what it is. And we build friendship by building a soft spot in our hearts while still walking with power. Like that lady that you saw in the coffee shop.
Right? 
MATT: Right. And I would, I would, I would actually go back to a concept that I used to love bringing up and I still do, which is the inner Popeye. We have to get out of our own way and just don't worry about it so much. 
FAWN: And going back to the class system, it hasn't disappeared. It's become harder to name I think on purpose.
Mm-hmm. Community didn't fail. We're living through, its dismantling. Think about how that's happening. And then going back [00:52:00] to when I started talking to you about like self-soothing, I don't think that's weakness. It's adaptive intelligence. You know, do whatever you can to feel good in a healthy way with balance.
Of course., I know this probably doesn't sound like if someone who doesn't know us comes to our podcast right now today, like, we probably sound so cynical, but I feel like it's, we're discerning. Discerning. Do you disagree? 
MATT: I'm not gonna fight you on that.
Not gonna fight you on that, but be bold. 
FAWN: But there is something that is there.
There is something out there. And before I tell you what that something is, please hear me when I say, if you feel like you are holding yourself together alone, you and I are a community. We are a community.
There is a community out there. We are it. So let's explore the micro community that quietly exists.
A micro community is [00:53:00] belonging at a human scale,
not an audience, not a following, not a network, not a group chat or a place where you have to perform. And. Have stability or success. A micro community is made of small, real, repeatable movements of mutual recognition. It could be two to five people, sometimes even just one. No formal name, no mission statements, no promise of permanence, very low expectations, and a surprisingly high emotional impact.
It doesn't say we are a community. It says, I see you.
And the reason why micro community matters right now, especially when money is tight, time is fragmented, and safety feels abstract. Large scale community becomes inaccessible. Micro community serves because it requires less energy. It tolerates unevenness. [00:54:00] It doesn't punish inconsistency. It allows people to come as they are.
This is the number three friend we've been talking about this whole time. It's how humans have always survived collapse, quietly, rationally, without branding it.
It exists even when it feels like you have nothing. None of it.
Some examples. There's the witness relationship. Someone who knows your real circumstances, doesn't try to fix them, doesn't disappear because of them. Again, these are definitions of the number three friend, the friend that just loves you, for who you are. This is what we've been talking about since 2020.
It might be one friend who checks in without urgency, someone who listens more than they talk. Someone you don't see that often, but when you do, you're real. This is community. Even if it's only one person. For me, sometimes it's a bird that keeps visiting us, that we've [00:55:00] named Eric. Literally comes within an inch of me and just hangs out with me, follows me in the yard
you guys amazing. Makes me cry. Um, the rhythmic familiar. There are people you see repeatedly without intimacy, pressure. The barista who knows your order. The librarian, the yoga teacher, the fellow parent you nod to each week, you know? They regulate the nervous system because they say, Hey, you exist, you are expected.
That's not small. That's anchoring. And then there's the mutual care loop. This is subtle but powerful. You hold space for someone, they hold space for you, not equally, not symmetrically, but sincerely. It may not feel like support because it isn't dramatic, but it is stabilizing.
And if you look, you can probably find some sort of a shared language bond. Sometimes [00:56:00] community is not proximity, it's resonance. People who understand your metaphors get your sensitivity. Don't ask you to simplify your inner world.
Micro community begins when one of those resonant relationships becomes reciprocal, even lightly. There's also that that friend that doesn't demand, that we don't demand friendship. This one is sacred. These are relationships where silence isn't punished, absence isn't interrogated.
Financial strain doesn't disqualify you. Being unsure is allowed. They often survive because they don't ask for proof of worth. The micro community is hard to see when you're tired or grieving
because it doesn't announce itself. So because we've been taught community looks like gatherings. That support looks like resources and belonging looks like being chosen [00:57:00] loudly, right? Micro community is quieter than that. It's more like shared breathing,
 so you may not have structural community, financial buffered, community institutional belonging, but we do have threads, and threads can be woven slowly, imperfectly without forcing them into a rope.
 That's it for me, my lecturing for this week. 
MATT: Fair enough, good stuff. Really, really good stuff in there. 
FAWN: And again, all this because I've been feeling, aside from my immediate family and some good friends out there, but they don't really know what's going on with me because, you know, I'm too ashamed to say, Hey, I'm really struggling over here.
I don't want to say anything because I don't want it held against me. You know, I don't want them to think of me as some weak victim or something. So I'm like, [00:58:00] you know what? Let me just move through it. And if someday I tell them, Hey, what this is, what was happening? Maybe I'll tell 'em. But like, I just feel alone.
So this is a reminder mainly for myself. But I hope that it touches you. And if you're feeling like I am, I hope this helps.
MATT: Fair. Love you sweetie. 
FAWN: Love you. Love you guys. 
MATT: Be well. Everyone. 
FAWN: Have a beautiful every day. Talk to you in a few days.